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Yellow box fine of £513 with little notice
Dundermoose1
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 12:53
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In Oct 2017 while driving my wife's car in Merton, London I stopped in a yellow box for a few seconds. This was due to a truck in front of me coming to a standstill to let an oncoming car turn right into a side alley about 15 meters on from the yellow box.

We moved houses about 3 days after the traffic incident and set up a mail forwarding service through the Post Office which ran until January 2018.

In early April 2018 we received a Notice of Enforcement (sent 2 days earlier) from Merton Enforcement Agents giving us 14 day to pay a £278 fine (see link below). This was the first we heard of the fine. My wife immediately called Merton Enforcement Agents and was directed to call PCN. She explained the situation to PCN, including our house move and the fact that this was the first that we had heard of the fine. They actually apologised and said that the original fine (that was issued shortly after the incident) would be reissued. Apparently the original fine had been mailed to an address that the car was last registered at 3 years ago! As requested we sent them proof of when we moved (i.e. the relevant pages of our current rental agreement) and waited to receive the reissued fine.

Today (17 days later) the bailiffs showed up at our home at 6am demanding £513. They had clamped our car and said that if we didn't pay the fine there and then he would have our car towed away that morning. This was out of office hours so we were unable to call PCN or Merton Enforcement Agents to clarify what exactly had happened here. Because we needed the car to get the kids to school and to get to work we were left with no alternative other than paying the fine.

A few hours later my wife called PCN to try and resolve the issue and get the fine repaid. They told her that they do not reissue fines and that we may be able to get a partial refund, but that that refund will definitely not include a refund of the enforcement fee (which was £235). They said that they will send us a letter later this week in this regard.

We are now in the process of contacting the DVLA to find out why they handed out 3 years old details to Merton Enforcement Agents in the first place (we have moved twice since those details were correct and informed the DVLA of our address change on both occasions).

As it stands I see 2 issues here: (1) whether the fine itself is enforceable (either due to the facts of the incident itself or the time that elapsed between the incident and us receiving the fine) and (2) whether it was in any event legal to progress the fine to the enforcement stage with such short notice and given what we were told over the phone. With regard to (1), the fact that we did not receive timely notice of the fine meant that we were not able to appeal as is usually the case.

Given that Merton Council are unlikely to refund much of the fine, my initial thoughts are to issue a letter before action asking that the £513 be repaid in full or alternatively that we be provided with (1) all photographic/video evidence of the incident, (2) all telephone recordings of our interactions with Merton Enforcement Agents and PCN, and (3) details and proof of all letters sent to us including dates and the address(es) that those letters were sent to. This will fuel a small claims action against them if needed. Would this letter need to be address to Merton Council or Merton Enforcement Agents? And would any subsequent action be against Merton council of Merton Enforcement Agents?

If anyone has any advice it would be very much appreciated. You can probably understand this is a stressful situation as £513 is a lot of money to have to fork out at the end of the month without notice.



Below is a link to the only paper correspondence we received (Notice of Enforcement):
https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9215/kpH8KV.jpg
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post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 12:53
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cp8759
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 12:57
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When you moved house did you update your V5C?


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peterguk
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 12:58
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 13:57) *
When you moved house did you update your V5C?


And if you did, what is the DOC REF DATE on page 2? It is vanishingly unlikely DVLA passed out any details other than what they held on file at the time of the enquiry.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 12:59


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 13:08
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First off, before you go firing off claims read this

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=119825

The council can only send documents to the address provided by DVLA until they can verify that the RK is to be contacted at another address. The address given by DVLA is that held on the register of vehicles. Many people think that by updating their driving license they automatically update car details did you?

You are where you are. The process now is to file a statutory declaration that you did not receive the PCN. This can only be done in a short time frame unless the court allow, so you will also need to file an application to file out of time.

There are people with far more knowledge than I who will help you through this process. But check first what is the address shown on the v5c and what is the docref date shown on that document


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Dundermoose1
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 13:08
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Hi cp8759. Thanks for the quick reply. Yes we did. We usually do that within a couple of weeks of moving. In any event, the address that the Merton Council used was an address that the car was last registered at in February 2015. We have moved twice since then, once in 2016 and once in October 2018. We had updated our V5C on both occasions. We have been told by the DVLA that if we complete a V888 form then they will be able to provide us with dates that we updated our address.
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peterguk
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 13:11
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QUOTE (Dundermoose1 @ Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 14:08) *
they will be able to provide us with dates that we updated our address.


The DOC REF DATE will be the date the address was last updated by DVLA.


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Dundermoose1
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 13:39
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Hi all. Thank you for taking the time to comment. Our current V5C has a “Doc. Ref. No” at the bottom LH corner of page 2 which is an 11 digit number followed by a large space and 6 more digits. These 6 digests could be a date - “03 11 17” (3 Nov 2017), so 15 days after we moved. Is there some sort of deadline to make the address change with the DVLA? Surely 15 days is quick enough? In any event we had a mail forward set up at our previous address so any correspondence sent there should have been forwarded to our current address. I think any error with the DVLA must have been made earlier as the address Merton Council used was 3 years old – i.e. from 3 house moves ago. Hopefully the V888 form will show that we changed our address after each move as we don't have our old V5C forms anymore.



PASTMYBEST, do you reckon a court may slap me with an income-based fine? The car is registered to my wife who is currently a stay-at-home mum with negligible income. So an income-based fine would be great!!

You say, “The process now is to file a statutory declaration that you did not receive the PCN. This can only be done in a short time frame unless the court allow, so you will also need to file an application to file out of time.” Do you have any more information about this? Would the application out of time have to be fined with the court that granted Merton Council their enforcement power (which is conveniently in Northampton - 74 miles from where I live and 72 miles from where the traffic incident took place)?

Thanks you all so much for all your advice so far.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 13:50
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No This is a decriminalized matter it has got a bit out of hand because of bailiffs costs, but you have paid all you will have to pay. you might get some back or even all

In normal circumstances the regulations governing yellow box junction contraventions, make allowance for the fact that documents do not arrive with the intended person for whatever reason. This is the statutory declaration, it is an automatic process and the council would be ordered to re set the process back to the PCN. Unfortunately when the application is made out of time the council are given opportunity to object, and they invariably do. So to counter this the out of time needs to be completed with great care. as I said other better suited will help. That you updated promptly is of great help to your case


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Dundermoose1
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 14:49
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Thanks PASTMYBEST and everyone else too. It is overwhelming how many people have replied to me so quickly. Thank you


If anyone has any pointers regarding what I should put into the application out of time and accompanying statutory declaration it would be much appreciated. Also, any suggestion as to who we need to file this with would be appreciated. I suspect those details would have been contained in the PCN that we never received.

On that point the Merton Council website says that appeals can be made to them via their website, email or in writing. However these refer to the PCN and Notice to Owner stages. As we did not receive anything before the Notice of Enforcement, and the associated deadlines have lapsed, do we appeal to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators?

Also, I have just noticed that the Merton Council website says this: "It is not possible to appeal a PCN after paying the penalty charge. Payment of a PCN indicates that the motorist has accepted liability and the right of appeal is lost." Hopefully this won't apply in our case as we paid without due notice and under duress (due to the imminent threat of our car being impounded). Can the council rely on this?

Also, it just occurred to me that this whole debacle involves an adverse country court judgment which will adversely effect my credit rating. So I will want that expunged too. Does that need to be done in the same action or via a separate county court action?
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 14:55
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QUOTE (Dundermoose1 @ Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 15:49) *
Thanks PASTMYBEST and everyone else too. It is overwhelming how many people have replied to me so quickly. Thank you


If anyone has any pointers regarding what I should put into the application out of time and accompanying statutory declaration it would be much appreciated. Also, any suggestion as to who we need to file this with would be appreciated. I suspect those details would have been contained in the PCN that we never received.

On that point the Merton Council website says that appeals can be made to them via their website, email or in writing. However these refer to the PCN and Notice to Owner stages. As we did not receive anything before the Notice of Enforcement, and the associated deadlines have lapsed, do we appeal to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators?

Also, I have just noticed that the Merton Council website says this: "It is not possible to appeal a PCN after paying the penalty charge. Payment of a PCN indicates that the motorist has accepted liability and the right of appeal is lost." Hopefully this won't apply in our case as we paid without due notice and under duress (due to the imminent threat of our car being impounded). Can the council rely on this?

Also, it just occurred to me that this whole debacle involves an adverse country court judgment which will adversely effect my credit rating. So I will want that expunged too. Does that need to be done in the same action or via a separate county court action?


getting to much of the wrong info. It will not affect your credit rating.

Merton have absolutely no standing in this any more and will not have until you have the charge revoked and reset to PCN

You would file the out of time and statutory declaration with the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) this is a part of the count court system. I wan only stress do not rush of to do this without advice. It will fail and your only options then is to put the matter before a judge, there will be a cost for this and in the main it is not recoverable


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Dundermoose1
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 15:18
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Thanks PASTMYBEST!

Does anyone in the know have any pointers about filing an out of time challenge and statutory declaration with the Traffic Enforcement Centre, what points I should cover and any pitfalls I should avoid? This is a bit of a strange one I suppose because we have already paid the fine (albeit under duress) and will be looking for repayment as well as a reissue of the PCN.

As always any advice is much appreciated!

This post has been edited by Dundermoose1: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 16:51
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Incandescent
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 19:50
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Submitting an OOT declaration is free, but can be opposed by the council. As they invariably do oppose, (they want to keep the money !!), TEC will reject your submission. At this point you have the option to have your case reviewed by a County Court judge. Papers-only £100, interview with Judge-in-Chambers £255. If you are successful, these charges are not normally reimbursed.

There is a website dedicated to cases such as yours: -

http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

A small fee is payable, but worth it to make sure your declaration is correctly made out. If you are totally inexperienced in these matters it might be worth making contact.
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Neil B
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 20:04
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QUOTE (Dundermoose1 @ Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 16:18) *
what points I should cover and any pitfalls I should avoid?

Lots of each!

Best to draft something and let us tear into it.

This is a very unfortunate case.
With contravention so close to your move this was unavoidable and an OOT should be readily accepted.

The PCN itself was almost certainly AFTER your move.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 20:06
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 20:50) *
Submitting an OOT declaration is free, but can be opposed by the council. As they invariably do oppose, (they want to keep the money !!), TEC will reject your submission. At this point you have the option to have your case reviewed by a County Court judge. Papers-only £100, interview with Judge-in-Chambers £255. If you are successful, these charges are not normally reimbursed.

There is a website dedicated to cases such as yours: -

http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

A small fee is payable, but worth it to make sure your declaration is correctly made out. If you are totally inexperienced in these matters it might be worth making contact.


Sheila is very good, I would want to hear from NeilB HCanderson and dancingdad amongst others if the come into the thread


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Neil B
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 22:28
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QUOTE (Dundermoose1 @ Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 13:53) *
In early April 2018 we received a Notice of Enforcement (sent 2 days earlier) from Merton Enforcement Agents giving us 14 day to pay a £278 fine (see link below). This was the first we heard of the fine. My wife immediately called Merton Enforcement Agents and was directed to call PCN. She explained the situation to PCN, including our house move and the fact that this was the first that we had heard of the fine. They actually apologised and said that the original fine (that was issued shortly after the incident) would be reissued. Apparently the original fine had been mailed to an address that the car was last registered at 3 years ago! As requested we sent them proof of when we moved (i.e. the relevant pages of our current rental agreement) and waited to receive the reissued fine.

What record do you have of this call.
"early April" is not good enough; date?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 22:50
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Oh!

I've just noticed they've used in-house EAs. That makes it more interesting.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Dundermoose1
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 09:25
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 20:50) *
Submitting an OOT declaration is free, but can be opposed by the council. As they invariably do oppose, (they want to keep the money !!), TEC will reject your submission.


Incandescent, are you saying that there is no point in submitting an OOT declaration because when the council opposes it the TEC will reject our submission?




Incandescent and PASTMYBEST, thank you for mentioning the bailiffadviceonline website. We have contacted them requesting advice. I am going to pore over that site this evening but it looks like it will be really helpful!




Neil B, what forms do we need to use for filing an OOT and declaration? I am a bit confused as all of the advice I’ve found online refers to circumstances where you have not yet paid the fine. If you can let me know that then I’ll complete those forms with my statement and let you “tear into it” biggrin.gif Regarding the PCN arriving after we moved, the council are aware of this as we provided them with proof of our moving date when we first spoke to them on the phone. Yet they still chose to proceed to the enforcement stage. This is what really pisses me off!

You ask what record we have of our first call with the council and when it took place. It took place on 6 April 2018 (the day we received the Notice of Enforcement). We have a contemporaneously written record of the call. I had told my wife to record the call but she didn’t dry.gif So she wrote a note of what was said that evening. At the end of the call my wife specifically asked what the next steps were and she was told that we should wait for the reissued PCN to arrive. So I really feel that we didn’t do anything wrong here. We are considering a freedom of information request to get the phone recordings of that call, but the council’s website says that that takes 20 days. Is it worth doing that before appealing or would waiting that long adversely affect our chances of success?

Why does the fact that they used an in-house EA make this case more interesting?




Everyone, I know I probably sound like a stuck record here, but thank you all so much for your comments and advice so far. You and this website really are a godsend!!
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Neil B
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 09:59
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Give me a while to answer all of that.

Meanwhile, download forms PE2 and PE3 here >
http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCT...cement%20Centre
including the Guidance.

PE2 is the important one, explaining why PE3 is late.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 10:24
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QUOTE (Dundermoose1 @ Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 10:25) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 20:50) *
Submitting an OOT declaration is free, but can be opposed by the council. As they invariably do oppose, (they want to keep the money !!), TEC will reject your submission.


Incandescent, are you saying that there is no point in submitting an OOT declaration because when the council opposes it the TEC will reject our submission?
Yes TEC tend to side with Councils if they object but in this case the Council will find it hard to justify objecting.
If they do, I believe a DJ would overrule and you'd also have a good case to pursue later, through the LA Ombudsman.



Incandescent and PASTMYBEST, thank you for mentioning the bailiffadviceonline website. We have contacted them requesting advice. I am going to pore over that site this evening but it looks like it will be really helpful!

I am a bit confused as all of the advice I’ve found online refers to circumstances where you have not yet paid the fine.
You can file an OOT whether you've paid or not. You have the advantage that there is no rush; no bailiff pursuing you.

If you can let me know that then I’ll complete those forms with my statement and let you “tear into it”
Just easiest at mo as I have limited time. Quickest way to adjust your perceptions; don't be offended when we do.
If you have questions to get you started, fire away but the forms and notes give you the focus.

biggrin.gif Regarding the PCN arriving after we moved, the council are aware of this as we provided them with proof of our moving date when we first spoke to them on the phone. Yet they still chose to proceed to the enforcement stage. This is what really pisses me off!
We shall be reminding them of that.

You ask what record we have of our first call with the council and when it took place. It took place on 6 April 2018 (the day we received the Notice of Enforcement). We have a contemporaneously written record of the call.
Can we see that please.

I had told my wife to record the call but she didn’t dry.gif So she wrote a note of what was said that evening. At the end of the call my wife specifically asked what the next steps were and she was told that we should wait for the reissued PCN to arrive. So I really feel that we didn’t do anything wrong here. We are considering a freedom of information request to get the phone recordings of that call, but the council’s website says that that takes 20 days. Is it worth doing that before appealing or would waiting that long adversely affect our chances of success?
FOI probably not the avenue. Since you'll be referencing the call and their 'promise' they'll ultimately have to disprove it, imo.

Why does the fact that they used an in-house EA make this case more interesting?
Sorting this particular OOT should be ok: Getting the money back a different story. In-house bailiff may make
that easier, possibly.




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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Dundermoose1
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 13:42
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Neil B, I have pasted the note that my wife made of her first call with PCN below. It also includes brief background and subsequent actions sections. I have removed certain details as I understand this is suggested practice when posting things to this site. These redaction are in square brackets and if you think that they contain details that you need to know I will happily provide them.


Note of telephone call between PCN Debt and [wife’s name]
6 April 2018, 14:50 to 14:56

Background: A call was made to Merton Council a few minutes earlier were I was provided with details of the alleged traffic offence (including date and location) as we had not yet been provided with those details. I was told that the PCN had been sent to [address] which the car was not registered to at at any time in 2017. I was then advised to call PCN Debt as Merton Council indicated that they are the appropriate entity to discuss the Notice of Enforcement that we had received.

Telephone call with PCN Debt: After identifying the matter by providing the lady with appropriate reference number I explained to her that we had moved home three days after the alleged traffic offence (vacating our previous residence on 19 October 2017) and that we had not received the PCN or any subsequent correspondence until the Notice of Enforcement arrived in the mail today. I was told that I would have to provide proof that we had moved. I said that I could provide copies of the appropriate pages of our current lease agreement which clearly shows when we moved. She told me that that would be acceptable and provided me with an email address where I could send this document. I was told that the fine would be put on hold and that I would be sent the original PCN via mail at our current address. I asked if there was anything else that I needed to do or any other details that she needed from me and she said no. I then asked what the next steps would be and she said that I should wait for the PCN to arrive in the mail and after that we could make arrangements to pay the fine.

Following the call: Copies of the appropriate pages of our lease agreement were sent to PCNDebt@merton.gov.uk (i.e. the email address provided by PCN Debt) soon after the telephone call at 15:21. I received an automated confirmation email at 15:22.




Note: We have since spoken to Merton Council again as we wanted to double check the address to which the original PCN was sent. They now say that it was sent to our previous address – which is not what was said during the call on 6 April 2017. If those letters were sent to our previous address we would have received them at our current address as we had a mail forwarding service set up which ran until mid-January.

Merton Council now also conveniently say that their calls are not recorded (despite a message at the beginning of all calls saying that they are). I see this as bad because we now have no proof (apart from my wife's note) which states that the original PCN wasn't sent to a valid address. But I suppose it is also good because they have no way of disproving anything else she says.

Another point that I should also bring up – the PCN and all other letters they allegedly sent us (including the Notice of Enforcement) were addressed to my wife using her maiden and middle name and not her surname. Does that invalidate the PCN on a technicality?




Regarding any comments and feedback you may have; I have absolutely no problem with you being as critical as necessary. I’d rather you tear it apart and I win this thing than you worry about my ego and let me say something stupid biggrin.gif

I have a few questions before I get drafting:

1) Are the forms that I am meant to complete and send to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators forms PE2 and PE3? Not sure about PE3 as it is entitled “Statutory Declaration – unpaid penalty charge”, but I can’t find a statutory declaration form that relates to a paid penalty charge.

2) You say that “Sorting this particular OOT should be ok: Getting the money back a different story”. Won’t I be asking the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators to order: (1) that the PCN be reissued (to allow me the opportunity to contest or pay the fine at the lower rate) and (2) the fine be refunded in full?
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