Hi folks,
I received a surprise PCN this week for parking in a bay (where I previously paid for parking there using the parking machine; cash) - the PCN says its because its mobile phone payment only.
Im a bit shocked for these reasons:
Ive parked here or nearby bays since July 2017 and never received any PCNs - I paid for parking using the machine (I always use).
I dont always have my mobile with me.
There are a few areas around here where you can use the machine to pay for parking, why I should be disadvantaged by not using mobile phone does not seem right.
I am going to appeal, as they will see that I have paid for parking, that I use this or a machine close by to park in the public parking bays.
On another note, now having checked and photographed the machine & signage plus another area where I regularly park - it is quite misleading; for example in another bay I use each week there is a parking machine where i pay for parking using cash, the sign close to that states mobile payments but does not mention the option to pay by machine which is a couple of feet from it. It seems deliberately misleading plus the signs are high up so not very user friendly.
anyone with any advice or similar experience please let me know as I want to appeal in the next couple of days.
Many thanks
Post up the PCN please
And a location (streetview) and any photos you have of the signs.
Pics:
Other signs & parking meter used:
Streetview: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Mansfield+Rd,+London+NW3+2JE/@51.5514681,-0.1580558,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x48761af70c170c77:0xf3e27e63fdb7aa38!8m2!3d51.5539998!4d-0.1545582
This seems to be where the white van is shown in your pics, not sure about the VW position.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5533879,-0.1570866,3a,90y,195.94h,74.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seFFC7Op26LvnFA4hnVVg8A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Certainly seems like mixed messages, restriction sign is clear enough "Pay by Phone" but then to have a payment machine right alongside in same bay ?
I wonder if they have updated their Traffic Orders to reflect only paying by phone ?
Traffic Orders here:-
https://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/content/transport-and-streets/parking/traffic-order-library-folder/controlled-parking-zone-traffic-orders/twocolumn/ca-l-west-kentish-town/
I would take this to adjudication just on the juxtaposition of sign and ticket machine--totally confusing.
I cannot see that the traffic orders impose an exclusive pay by phone situation but maybe I am misreading.
The other issue, of course, is whether any UK Council can impose this sort of condition. I can see how special bays for doctors or businesses have credence but giving phone users priority in a bog standard parking bay must breach the equality legislation and the ECHR.
Mick
Ooooh, so used to London Councils not having traffic orders readily available, didn't look.
Thanks MMV
Article 12, specifically 12.4 to 12.5 refers to how the charge can be paid.
I cannot see anything that restricts to only PBP, cash is a valid alternative.
I assume that the P&D ticket was displayed and visible ?
Can't read the PCN either, What is the exact wording on the contravention please ?
All I can make out is summat about mobile phone payment.
Hi,
Many thanks; just to answer questions:
1. No P&D ticket as the machine "assures" that payment has been made & no receipt necessary.
2. Where the car was parked Southampton Road; its on the junction with Mansfield Road. The pole displaying Mobile Payments only is on Southampton Rd (Im not sure if this is a new sign but previously I paid at the machine on mansfield road as it was the closest machine).
3. where the van is parked is Mansfield Rd & has the ticket machine beside it. [ the notice on the pole is very high up so anyone small in stature has a job trying to read the details!)
I cant see in the TMO where it can ONLY be a mobile payment; seems unreasonable. I see some other motorist got a ticket the other day at the same bay; presumably they had been using the machine as they had before.
I would appeal on the grounds that signage and machines are misleading in that vicinity and also that a precedent had been set as I had continued to use this method of payment for almost 1 year. their records will show from the machines that I had paid twice each week for parking since May/June so it wasnt that I didnt want to pay.
any thoughts? Ive uploaded slightly clearer images.
thanks
OP---did you have to input your VRM when you paid?
Mick
Hi Mick,
Yes - input VRM each time - so records go back to May 2017. So theres proof that I had paid.
thanks
The sign does not require the display of a ticket, therefore the ONLY issue, and it is the only issue, in the context of the alleged contravention is whether the parking charge was paid.
So, what evidence do you have?
None of a physical nature, your case rests wholly on your claim to have paid the correct parking charge in to the machine.
Can we focus on this please. For example, did you have to enter your reg no? If not, how can you prove you paid the charge?
The full contravention description stated on the PCN seems to be unauthorised.
http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/20848
Could be used a leverage.
I've been bouncing back and forth in the Traffic Order (Schedules seem very light to me but putting that to one side)
The contravention stated is non payment of the parking charge.
The order takes display of ticket or display on CEO handheld as evidence of payment
We know there would be no ticket but that VRM is input.
Which comes down to CEO handheld did not show the payment for some reason
Or wrong VRM?
Apart from computer glitch, the only reason I can see that could mean the handheld did not show payment is possibly on location.
The signs in Mansfield where paid and in Southampton where parked seem to show different locations for PBP payment.
Whether this would create the no show, no idea.
Differing locations could mean different payment amount required. Which is why I was looking in schedules.
Looks to be same across wide areas so should not be a problem, just cannot confirm at moment.
Cannot discount wrong VRM
To me this comes down to a challenge that you did pay, ask (demand) that they check their records for your VRM or one similar at relevant time (One digit or letter adrift)
See what comes back.
Thanks folks,
Yes I had to enter the reg no at the ticket machine - and have done so twice every week since May/June so there is definite proof that I have been making regular payments since then - without EVER getting a PCN.
This includes parking on Southampton Road and paying at the machine in Mansfield Road. The machines dont give receipts or tickets to display; which is why I assumed that paying at the machine would suffice.
Many thanks for responses, I will make my appeal on the grounds that payment was made - should I say anything about confusion of signs at this stage ... ??
Wonderful! Thank you for this - I hope they get the laughs I did reading this!!!
Lets see.. !!!
Another issue which should be explored is whether the pay by phone parking fee is different from the ticket parking fee. Not too concerned about minor add ons to use PBP but the core fee.
The TMO quotes the fee but this is a new situation where there could be differentials.
Mick
IMO, this would be for the authority to put in their response e.g. the CEO had record of a payment, but an incorrect and underpayment, or no record at all, or one for a nearly VRM, or one for this VRM but at a different location etc... all for the authority to deal with in theeir consideration based upon the OP's assertion.
Hi Folks,
Thanks for all your help with this - just putting in appeal against PCN and went back to area and looked at sign again. there is a sign (turned away from main park by mobile sign) and it appears that there are details about paying at a machine - they specifiy a particular machine which is further away than one I paid in - Im wondering now if that will be used against me......???
You missed that you got photos of the sign and any other that may be relevant ?
Re the sign and machine, could be the reason for the PCN but makes no change to the basic challenge.
I parked
I paid at machine, inputting my PCN as required etc
Ignore me if you like - I'm not an expert, just someone who has been helped by this forum in the past.
This thread actually reminds me of phone-in votes to reality TV. Didn't the TV stations get a right bollocking when it was found that people could still vote (and pay extortionate amounts for these phone calls) even though the vote wasn't counted? They now have to put ENORMOUS warnings about voting late.
How DARE Camden leave machines in a condition where you think you have paid for your parking, but in fact you haven't. OK. so it seems that they may have put an ADDITIONAL sign up to the effect that only one pay machine worked. How many notices are we poor motorists supposed to search for?
Just thoughts, that might spark one of you experts into a new way of thinking.
Thanks - I happened to be there again this week and just to be absolutely certain I had all the facts; I walked to parking sign and then saw the smaller sign re using a ticket machine; how very naughty of them to have the text relating to where the nearest ticket machine in fainter type.....
Will put the challenge in and keep you posted - thanks for all the help though it really helps get a bit of reassurance
SUCCESS!!!
Received a response today:
After investigating the case, and taking into consideration the points you have raised, I have
decided to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
Our paid for parking records confirm that a cashless parking session had been activated for
your vehicle between 11:08 - 12:11 on Tuesday 12/12/2017 for Southampton Road. However,
in this instance the PCN issued at 11:37 as at the time of checking, the database had yet to be
updated with your valid payment when the Civil Enforcement Officer searched your vehicle
registration. There sometimes can be a slight delay in the system updating once payment had
been made.
Thank you everyone!!!
Excellent.
But a bit dumbfounded, in fact gobsmacked with a rather putrid herring that records may not be updated for best part of 30 minutes (or longer).
And this led to the PCN.
How can this be a robust system that is unlikely to lead to errors.
30 mins delay ??? WTF!! complete bowlacs
Could you post a copy of the letter here? I have a feeling that a written admission that their payment machines are not fit for purpose might prove useful in future...
OP, pl post the letter. From what you say, it's dynamite.
Hi Folks,
Please see response letter - Ive taken out personal details.
many thanks again
Does anyone know who operates the ticketless machine system? I take it it is a separate system from a pay by phone such as Ringgo.
Also the letter refers to 'mobile phone parking' - it wasn't though.
Hi,
Its operated by PARKEON
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