PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN Single yellow - Leeds Hoxton Mount, Broken line, signs not visible
dmagdub
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:13
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 9 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,290



Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate some advice on the following and also like to inform others about this road in Leeds.

I purchased a van from Leeds and stopped for McDonalds on the way home next to Elland Road Football Ground. The spaces were tight in McDonalds car park so I parked on Hoxton Mount road next to it. There was poorly maintained broken yellow line and I couldn’t see any signage so I thought I would be ok for 10 mins. I returned to find a PCN Code 01.

I walked the length of the road and found a parking restriction sign tucked away in some overgrown bushes. The sign on the other side of the road was covered in stickers. So no visible times could be seen.

Also the yellow line had around a 2 meter break where the road was resurfaced at some point. Plus various other breaks in the line. I have date provable photographic evidence of all the above.

But what has really annoyed me is I believe there is an element of fraud going on. As the Civil Enforcement Officer has used a close up image of a sign that I do not believe is even on the road in question.

I feel I have a genuine case here and should not have to pay the fine. What are your thought? Many thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 15)
Advertisement
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:13
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Incandescent
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:42
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,914
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



As usual, post up the PCN and provide a GSV link to the location. If you took any photos, then post these too. It's fatal to park on single-yellow lines without knowing the restrictions. Councils dine out on motorists like yourself who think "it'll be OK, I'll only be there a couple of minutes". Your suggested appeal based on badly maintained lines and signs could win, but you have to prove it, and to an adjudicator too, as councils never admit their signs are inadequate. This would mean risking the full PCN penalty as the discount option will have gone.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kellerco
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 12:29
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,453



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:42) *
As usual, post up the PCN and provide a GSV link to the location. If you took any photos, then post these too. It's fatal to park on single-yellow lines without knowing the restrictions. Councils dine out on motorists like yourself who think "it'll be OK, I'll only be there a couple of minutes". Your suggested appeal based on badly maintained lines and signs could win, but you have to prove it, and to an adjudicator too, as councils never admit their signs are inadequate. This would mean risking the full PCN penalty as the discount option will have gone.


I agree that unless you can show pictures of a very badly maintained yellow line, you will not likely win. Go back to the location and take pictures, then post them here. Google Street View may also help but it may be outdated unless you can verify that it is in the same condition.

If the yellow line is not capped with correct end point (a perpendicular line) and both your wheels were not on that same continuous yellow line that was correctly capped, then there is a case. How strong a case depends on a lot of things, including the adjudicator. As Incandescent said, council will never accept an appeal on this basis, unless the entire van was in a gap in the yellow line :-)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dmagdub
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:09
Post #4


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 9 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,290



Thanks for the replies. As I said in my original post, I do have date provable photographs that I took on the day. These show the broken line and poorly maintained signage. I will try and upload them
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:26
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (dmagdub @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:09) *
Thanks for the replies. As I said in my original post, I do have date provable photographs that I took on the day. These show the broken line and poorly maintained signage. I will try and upload them



And the council photos, these will be critical to any challenge. use an external hosting site such as imgur


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7774868,-...3312!8i6656


This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:30


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dmagdub
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:03
Post #6


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 9 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,290



Attached Image
Attached Image

Attached Image


Attached Image


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hoxton+Mo...a47cbbec2d969a1

Here is the google street view as requested. Many thanks in advance for any help and advice
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image

Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dmagdub
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:13
Post #7


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 9 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,290



Attached Image
Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image


Council pictures as requested. I suspect that the sign the council has used is not even on Hoxton Mount. As is has been taken strategically so that no background on show. Is this something anyone has heard of before? It is fraud

This post has been edited by dmagdub: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:15
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lab211
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 15:15
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 61
Joined: 9 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,432



The council picture of the sign is on Hoxton Mount, it is at the far end of the street: https://goo.gl/maps/ihrfQfcvb8R2. There are two, one on each side of the street there.

Having said that the signs at the entrance from the main road which you pictured do look bad, see what more experienced members have to say.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 16:44
Post #9


Member


Group: Closed
Posts: 9,710
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



OP----post up the back of the PCN please---they usually have flaws which can be exploited.

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dmagdub
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 17:18
Post #10


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 9 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,290



Attached Image


Here is the back of the parking ticket. Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 19:42
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,914
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



There is no mileage on the yellow line itself, it is clear enough making you bang-to-rights, unless you can show the restrictions sign was not present. Any motorist parking on a single yellow line is under a duty to look for the restrictions sign. I reckon a win at adjudication is unlikely, unless the PCN contains fatal errors of content. Far too many motorists are insouciant about parking on yellow lines; they tend to be ruthlessly enforced nowadays as the penalty income is so good.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:56
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



There's a flaw on the PCN, it says that if the NtO isn't paid, the council will increase the penalty by 50%, so the usual will/may logic applies.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 11:33
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,052
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



OP, you might have a serious problem here.

PCN dated 13 Sept.
Last day of 28-day period was 10 Oct.
You have not suggested you've challenged, therefore the system could be grinding on.

Submit a challenge NOW. Just say you didn't see the sign, albeit you thought you looked closely, and wrongly thought that given the poor state of the yellow lines no restriction was in force.


This would do several things:
1. It might get them to respond and re-offer the discount;
2. They might just reject.
3. It could delay the issuing of a NTO.

Winding forward to the NTO - to whom will it be addressed? If you've only just bought the van, have DVLA changed the registered keeper to you? You must deal with this point.

As regards grounds for reps after a NTO, cp's point is even worse than we normally see and is a clear procedural impropriety - I think: it doesn't actually make sense on its own. I think someone c****d-up proofreading the PCN.

Word for word:

'The owner must follow instructions on the NTO'
'Failure to pay at this stage.....'

B******s!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 12:25
Post #14


Member


Group: Closed
Posts: 9,710
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



OP---- I would include the following:-

1. The PCN states that failure to pay will result in an increased charge. This relates to the Charge Certificate procedure. The legislation does not impose a mandatory obligation on the Authority to serve a Charge Certificate where the Penalty Charge Notice remains unpaid and an appeal is not submitted. The legislation indicates the Council “may” but the Council indicates that charge “will” be increased rather than considering whether to do so under their discretionary power. This represents a procedural impropriety.

As regards the will/may situation I would refer the Council to TPT case UW05060M which adequately describes the issue.

2. The second issue on the PCN is that, in specifying that the charge will be increased and that action by bailiffs will occur, the Council has indicated action will be taken well before it should. This step is procedurally premature and prejudicial to the PCN recipient.

This represents a procedural impropriety which renders the PCN a nullity and unenforceable. The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 clearly states:-

4(5) In these Regulations “procedural impropriety” means a failure by the enforcement authority to observe any requirement imposed on it by the 2004 Act, by the General Regulations or by these Regulations in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum and includes in particular—

(a) the taking of any step, whether or not involving the service of any document, otherwise than—
(i)in accordance with the conditions subject to which; or
(ii)at the time or during the period when, it is authorised or required by the General Regulations or these Regulations to be taken;

I argue that the Charge Certificate actions noted in a PCN mean the Council has taken a step long before it is due and therefore this represents a procedural impropriety.

Mick

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sputnik365
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 20:59
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 490
Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Member No.: 1,737



OP I got one with the same wording.
What has happened with yours?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 21:04
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,914
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



QUOTE (sputnik365 @ Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 20:59) *
OP I got one with the same wording.
What has happened with yours?

Sometimes we never hear back on threads, usually because the OP has coughed-up.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 10:48
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here