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31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
Artichoke
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:52
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Hi,

My wife has received a PCN for "entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited (camera enforcement)".

From what I can see elsewhere the regulation is:-

"... no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles."

She obviously did pause for for whatever reason, but the exit route was clear and she didn't "have" to. There were no stationary vehicles present in the left hand lane when she entered the box junction. Does that mean an enforceable contravention occurred?

I would be grateful for comments.

Thanks.

Video link:-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36445619@N03/42791310461
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post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:52
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 10:28
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Box junctions

11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition
that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

Make reps to the council to the effect that the second part of the contravention 9as highlighted) is not made out so the PCN is invalid and must be cancelled
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 10:33
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Which car? Post the PCN too.

The sports car driver seems to have dozed off at the wheel.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 10:54
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Artichoke
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:12
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Haha. May have dozed off! Or maybe particularly cautious in letting the cyclist pass through.

Anyway, yes it's the sports car.


Thanks
Attached File(s)
Attached File  PCN.pdf ( 1.08MB ) Number of downloads: 13
 
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:36
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Councils have a habit of being particularly obstinate as regards reps against PCN's so its likely this would need to go before an adjudicator to decide. The movement towards the space just before the end of the video shows here intended path and that it was clear (no doubt why the video ended then)

Don't use the bike it passed quite a while after the stop. and it is a risk that you p off the adjudicator

See this case in support of your ground

2160252038

Adjudicator
Gerald Styles
Appeal decision
Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
The appellant attended the hearing arranged for 11 July.
The Council did not send a representative.
The appellant brought with him a freehand sketch in plan to explain and support his argument that the driver could have cleared the box without stopping for the 12 or so seconds recorded. I have retained this and accepted the measurements as shown.
The appellant's daughter Rebecca is shown driving on the clip. I understood she had passed her test two years ago. I have accepted that she could have cleared the box without stopping within it. In the event the rear wheels straddled the far perimeter.
She may through inexperience have misjudged the length of her father's car but I do not incline to allow an appeal of this type on that account. An obvious feature of the evidence was that when she stopped, that she did so for the purpose of adjusting controls on her music. I was inclined to be very critical of her taking her eyes off the road as she did and when she chose to do that. I did however conclude there was insufficient evidence to support this particular penalty charge as I could not attribute the reason for stopping as being essentially the presence of stationary vehicles, as opposed to preoccupation with what was playing music. I have recorded the appeal as allowed.


There is another one where the adjudicator makes reference to stopping for a picnic, as long as its not due to stationary vehicles but not got that to hand
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Artichoke
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 13:52
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Are you suggesting that I make reference to this case in my representation letter?

If so, is there somewhere I can find further information on the detail?
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:53
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You can go to https://londontribunals.org.uk/ and search under "statutory registers" and then "Environment and Traffic Adjudicators" using case number 2160252038, but to be honest there is't any further detail that is relevant.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Artichoke
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:56
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Thanks. And should I refer to the case in my letter?
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:19
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QUOTE (Artichoke @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:56) *
Thanks. And should I refer to the case in my letter?

Yes, I can't think of any reason not to.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Artichoke
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 17:54
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I appealed this PCN as the line of travel was towards the left hand lane and i) there was a clear exit route at the time of entry, and ii) stopping was not due to stationary vehicles.

Council have rejected as they contend that after stopping, the driver (my wife) was waiting for the right hand exit to be clear of vehicles. She says that is absolutely not the case.

Traffic was extremely slow on this particular morning and she paused on the junction to get sight of the road and try to see if there was any incident ahead. Her car is particularly low and this position gave her the best view.

Regardless of the reason for stopping, I’ve reviewed the video several times and I cannot see anything to support the assertion that she is waiting for the right exit lane to be clear.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Attached File  PCN_Rejection_red_optimize.pdf ( 773.61K ) Number of downloads: 24
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 18:01
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Plenty to pick on in that rejection but lets see your representations first
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Artichoke
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 18:16
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Hi PMB,

This what I sent:-

Dear Sir/Madam,

Alleged traffic contravention on 4th June 2018 at 09:19
31(J) Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited.

I am writing to appeal this PCN as I do not agree that an offence occurred.

Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to stationary vehicles in front.

The video evidence clearly shows that the line of travel is towards the left hand exit lane. There was a clear exit throughout and stopping was not due to stationary vehicles. Therefore, the vehicle’s passage through the box junction does not contravene the regulations.

In similar cases that have proceeded to appeal (eg Case 2160252038) it has been determined that stopping is not a contravention in itself.

As no offence has occurred, please cancel the PCN accordingly.

Yours faithfully,

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stamfordman
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 18:36
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Two wheels good, four wheels bad - you didn't mention the cyclist.

If it were me I'd go for it regardless as exit was clear and in fact wife did then move into the space ahead. No contravention, comrade Stalin.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 18:55
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After another case, I'm glad you did not mention the cyclist, but loads to go on. I would appeal
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Artichoke
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 11:18
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Many thanks,

Inclined to appeal to adjudicator with this.

Didn't mention any reason for stopping in my representation letter because it seems that unless stopping is due to stationary vehicles, the actual reason is irrelevant.

PMB, when you say ‘loads to go on’, is there anything particular you think I should add?

The council asserts that she wanted to move over to the right hand lane which is incorrect. My understanding (from reading cases referred to on this forum) is that the regulations require the assessment to be based on what the driver actually did, not what they might have done. If so, this would seem to be an invalid argument anyway. Any thoughts?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 16:40
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Yes but I am a bit busy bump next Wednesday if you have heard nothing and I will run through everything
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Artichoke
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 17:32
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Please let me know your thoughts when you have time.

Thanks
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Artichoke
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:32
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 17:40) *
Yes but I am a bit busy bump next Wednesday if you have heard nothing and I will run through everything


I need to send appeal in the next few days so any thoughts would be really helpful.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:28
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QUOTE (Artichoke @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 17:40) *
Yes but I am a bit busy bump next Wednesday if you have heard nothing and I will run through everything


I need to send appeal in the next few days so any thoughts would be really helpful.


I would look at the date I asked you to bump me. You left it late. I can do something perhaps tonight but more likely tomorrow. It might be a good idea to register your appeal.

Two grounds the contravention did not occur and the penalty exceeded the amount etc.

In the box for submissions just write full submission to follow.

select a personal appearance, you can always change later
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Artichoke
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 17:49
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Hi PMB,

Apologies for late 'bump'.

Rejection letter is dated 19th July so if I appeal online I guess I can wait until the last minute, which would be this time next week.

Not sure what you mean by 'penalty exceeded the amount etc' so happy to wait for your comments.

Really appreciate the help.

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