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PCN Not Received for Bus Lane in Wolverhampton
Neonin
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 06:56
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Hi all,

I'm sure you're used to this but apologies for being new, if I make any mistakes please feel free to point them out so I can improve!

I received a letter from bailiffs on Monday stating they were seeking to recover £408 for an unpaid PCN for Wolverhampton council. Having no knowledge of this I admit I did panic a little, never been through something like this before. The vehicle I was driving at the time was a hire van as I was moving house, so I assume they got the address from the hire company and I'd left that address the day after the hire. Nothing was ever forwarded to me by the estate agent so the bailiff letter came as a nasty surprise.

I rang the council yesterday morning who told me it was for driving in a bus lane in Wednesfield. They gave me the number of the TEC and told me I had to deal with them as it had gone to far for them to do anything about it. I spoke to a lovely woman who advised me I needed to fill in forms PE2 and PE3, sending them to me via email. She also said it should never have got to this point if the vehicle was a rental and the bailiffs can't came to my current address as the warrant is for my old address, not sure how that works but it sounded like she's had a lot to do with these kinds of issues.

I've also sent the council Parking division an email apologising for my lack of response, explaining why, and asking if I can view the evidence as I strongly suspect the ticket was issued in error for going round a mini roundabout (I was delivering a furniture donation to a charity shop) that is definitely not part of the bus lane. Even the Councils own diagrams on their site showi it isn't. This is why I haven't added any images to this yet as I don't have the evidence to see in the first place!

Anyway, the guidance for the PE2 states you need to put the registered keeper of the vehicle on there and not the driver at the time. Does this mean I have to put the rental companies details down?

Any help would be greatly appreciated and I hope everyone is having a good day!
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post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 06:56
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stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 07:42
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You would usually get an admin charge for PCN handling from the hire company - did nothing appear on your credit card statement?

This is the danger of not having mail forwarding when moving.

Wait for an expert on this to advise before sending any forms.

At this point the contravention is not a concern, only the debt recovery process.
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 08:12
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This might be handled in a similar way to the 'Ricenoodle' case, if Wolves Council are awake.

I have very little time this week but I'll try later today.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neonin
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 09:36
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 08:42) *
You would usually get an admin charge for PCN handling from the hire company - did nothing appear on your credit card statement?


It turns out I did, but as the credit card only had the rental deposit and never looked at the statements after that I hadn't even noticed. There's a £35 charge dated 15/7/17 when I look at past statements. I did a balance transfer from that card before the rental date so I may have assumed the £25 per month the credit card company (Tesco in this case) took via direct debit was just some leftover. I'm afraid credit cards are not something I've ever really dealt with and use infrequently.

I have an appointment with Dudley County Court at 12:30pm today to sign the PE2/3 forms in front of a witness, should I do this but hold off on submitting the forms?
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 10:16
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QUOTE (Neonin @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 10:36) *
I have an appointment with Dudley County Court at 12:30pm today to sign the PE2/3 forms in front of a witness, should I do this but hold off on submitting the forms?

You should show us the forms first.

QUOTE (Neonin @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 07:56) *
I received a letter from bailiffs on Monday stating they were seeking to recover £408 for an unpaid PCN

Did it give a deadline date for payment?

Do you own a car?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neonin
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 10:28
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:16) *
You should show us the forms first.


I haven't filled them in yet, was planning on doing so at 12pm when I'm on lunch.

QUOTE
Did it give a deadline date for payment?

Do you own a car?


Deadline was this Friday at 11:59pm.

I do own a car now, I bought one in October last year.

I had a response from Wolverhampton Council asking to see the evidence, they just say it's with the TEC and they can't do anything until instructed by them.
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:04
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QUOTE (Neonin @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:28) *
Deadline was this Friday at 11:59pm.

What does this mean - was and this? 15th or 8th ?

QUOTE (Neonin @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:28) *
I had a response from Wolverhampton Council asking to see the evidence, they just say it's with the TEC and they can't do anything until instructed by them.

You're asking for the wrong things.
You need to find out the dates each statutory notice was issued -

PCN to hire Co.
Cancellation of above
PCN to you
Charge Certificate
Order for Recovery.

Date you moved.

--
+ SHOW us the e-mail exchange.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neonin
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:15
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It is for the coming Friday 15th, sorry I should have been clearer.

Will Wolverhampton Council provide me with the dates if asked? They seem happy to just keep referring me to the TEC.

The ones I know:

Date of bus alleged lane infringement: 29/6/17
Date I moved out: 30/6/17
Date notice of enforcement issued (on bailiffs letter): 7/6/18

Only other details I have ar on the bailiffs letter, my PCN number (WV4149807A) and the vehicle registration. I only found out it was the hire vehicle because I looked up the reg.


Email chain to WCC so far:

QUOTE
PROTECT



Dear



Thank you for your email.



As your case has already been registered with the Traffic Enforcement Centre as a debt you will need to correspond with them directly to dispute the Penalty Charge Notice and request to make a Late Statutory Declaration against the notices. The Traffic Enforcement Centre can be contacted on 0300 123 1059 or via email at tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk.



The City of Wolverhampton Council cannot intervene with your case at this point without instruction from the Traffic Enforcement Centre.



Regards



Maya Parkes

Parking Services Officer

Tel. Office: 01902 550300



E-mail: parkingservices@wolverhampton.gov.uk

City of Wolverhampton Council







From: Parking Services
Sent: 13 June 2018 09:38
To:
Subject: RE: WV4149807A [PROTECT]



PROTECT



Dear

Thank you for your email.

Your enquiry will be reviewed accordingly and a response will be sent to you in due course.

Regards

Parking Services Officer





From:
Sent: 12 June 2018 19:32
To: Parking Services
Subject: PCN: WV4149807A



Good evening,



I am emailing with regard to the PCN number WV4149807A which I have been told by a lady I spoke to at the council this morning is for driving in a bus lane, specifically in Wednesfield High Street.



First off let me apologise for not responding to previous attempts to contact me. The van I was driving on the day of the contravention was a hire van that I was using to move house, which I completed the day after the PCN is for. Any previous correspondence has most likely ended up at my old address and never been forwarded to me by the estate agents (* in *, if you need to check with them to confirm I moved from * on 30th June 2017) so has not been seen.



I am in the process of submitting forms PE2 and PE3 to the Traffic Enforcement Centre as I have received an enforcement notice from your baliff company (Bristow & Sutor) and this is the first time I have heard anything to do with this PCN. I should be sending the completed and signed forms to them by email tomorrow, but while waiting I was wondering if it would be possible to view the photo/video evidence that has been used to issue the PCN? Due to not receiving any previous letters I have not seen anything and do not have the details required to view it on your site.



Any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated, and thank you for your time.



Kind regards,
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Neonin
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:45
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I cancelled the appointment at the County Court, couldn't get through on the phone so I turned up on time and apologised in person. They were really appreciative that I'd bothered and said just to ring them in the morning for a new appointment if needed.
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 12:57
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QUOTE (Neonin @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 12:15) *
Will Wolverhampton Council provide me with the dates if asked? They seem happy to just keep referring me to the TEC.

You are entitled to know further details of the debt. Tell them you need this date detail in order to make an application to a
Court of law -- and do they intend to obstruct you by refusing the info?

I'll try to pop back later.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neonin
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 15:19
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Thank you Neil, I really do appreciate any time you can spare.

Further emails:

QUOTE
RE: WV4149807A
enforcement parking <enforcement.parking@wolverhampton.gov.uk>
Today, 16:07
You;enforcement parking (enforcement.parking@wolverhampton.gov.uk)
Dear



Thank you for your email.



Please find the dates correspondence was sent out below as requested:



Date the PCN was sent to the hire company – 7th July 2017

Cancellation of above – 9th August 2017

Date the PCN was first sent to myself – 9th August 2017

Date of the charge certificate – 12th September 2017

Date of the order of recovery – 13th March 2018



Regards



Maya Parkes

Parking Services Officer

Tel. Office: 01902 550300



E-mail: parkingservices@wolverhampton.gov.uk

City of Wolverhampton Council







From:
Sent: 13 June 2018 16:01
To: Parking Services <Parking.Services@wolverhampton.gov.uk>
Cc: enforcement parking <enforcement.parking@wolverhampton.gov.uk>
Subject: Re: WV4149807A [PROTECT]



Good afternoon,



To ensure any paperwork I submit to a Court of Law is correct I will need details of the PCN, including the following:



Date the PCN was sent to the hire company

Cancellation of above

Date the PCN was first sent to myself

Date of the charge certificate

Date of the order of recovery



If you could please send this over to enable me to complete the paperwork accurately it would be appreciated.



Kind regards,


This post has been edited by Neonin: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 15:21
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 18:58
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So it's just a very unfortunate coincidence of timing and you could not possibly have received the PCN
or subsequent notices.
You need to emphasise that on your PE2.

Start drafting something and post it here.

Various members might be around to help you optimise it.

--
I think we might also write additionally to Wolves to flag up the situation and lean on them a bit.

--

Different circumstances but see the Ricenoodle case.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=120650


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neonin
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 19:51
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Absolutely. I'f I'd known about it I'd have either paid up (if the evidence shows I was in the wrong) or contested it at the time. I'm willing to own up if I make mistakes.

Draft of PE2:
"I did not respond to the initial letters regarding the PCN as the alleged contravention occurred on the 29/6/17 and I moved house on the 30/6/17, which can be confirmed by contacting <name of estate agent>. Because of this it would not have been possible for me to receive the correspondence. Had I been aware of the PCN I would have responded as quickly as possible, but due to a set of unfortunate coincidences I remained oblivious to the charge until a letter from a bailiff company arrived at my current address on 11/6/18"

Draft of PE3:
"All correspondence regarding this PCN was sent to an address I moved out of on 30/6/17, the day after the alleged contravention occurred, and was never forwarded to me so I was unaware of the existence of the PCN until a letter from bailiffs was received on 11/6/18".

With regards to the name and address, the guidance that came with the form says it has to be the registered keeper of the vehicle. Do I put the hire companies name and address or my current one as I'm the one named on the PCN?

Thank you again for all your time, Neil and anyone else who has/will contribute!

This post has been edited by Neonin: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 19:53
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 23:28
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Needs adjustment. I'll get back.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neonin
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 08:32
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Thank you again. Should I book a court appointment for today? At the time of writing the latest they have is 12:30 or some more tomorrow, not sure if tomorrow would be handing the forms in too late to avoid bailiffs turning up on Saturday.

This post has been edited by Neonin: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 08:33
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Neil B
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 08:50
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It's vital to get them right and, again, I'm struggling for time.

I can't promise anything before 12, maybe 1.



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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Neonin
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:11
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No panic Neil, I appreciated your time is limited. I just rang them and they don't have any appointments left for today now anyway, so I've booked in tomorrow at 12pm. Hopefully if I email TEC straight after signing them (I'm lucky to work in an environment with a scanner so can do it almost immediately) it will be soon enough for Wolverhampton Council to get the notification and call off the bailiffs.
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Neil B
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:20
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QUOTE (Neonin @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 20:51) *
Draft of PE3:
"All correspondence regarding this PCN was sent to an address I moved out of on 30/6/17, the day after the alleged contravention occurred, and was never forwarded to me so I was unaware of the existence of the PCN until a letter from bailiffs was received on 11/6/18".

No, this doesn't require any detail, just a single sentence.

'I did not receive the PCN due to a change of address immediately after the contravention'

The other detail you've included should be in the PE2.

You need to understand what the forms are for: PE3 automatically resets the matter and gets you a new PCN.
PE2 is a request to file PE3 late and where you explain why you are late. You must back up with supporting evidence,
e.g. of your move.

I'll look at that in next couple of hours.




QUOTE (Neonin @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 10:11) *
No panic Neil, I appreciated your time is limited. I just rang them and they don't have any appointments left for today now anyway, so I've booked in tomorrow at 12pm. Hopefully if I email TEC straight after signing them (I'm lucky to work in an environment with a scanner so can do it almost immediately) it will be soon enough for Wolverhampton Council to get the notification and call off the bailiffs.

You just keep a copy to wave in the bailiff's face if they turn up.
You can also alert Wolves, by phone, (after filing) to watch out for and act on TEC notification e-mail.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:38
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Bit more info.

As you may know, the Council are allowed to object to your application. Most often they do this just by
stating they sent the notices, then TEC tend to side with them.

So the statement we write must persuade a TEC Court Officer that there are compelling reasons to accept
your application, whatever the Council say.
But it is also aimed at the Council to dissuade them from objecting.

I hope that helps.

---
btw, on the forms, you are respondent, Council is applicant.
Do NOT sign until the local Court Officer tells you to (after swearing).

--
More later.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neonin
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:55
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I've sent an email to the estate agents I was renting the place I moved from asking if they could just print off a letter stating I moved on the day I did. They're only round the corner from work so I should be able to pick that up quickly.

I'm still annoyed I can't actually see the evidence of what they're accusing me of doing and am having to go a completely roundabout way to get back to that point. I'm 99% certain the original PCN was issued in error anyway and having to go through all this for something that, I believe, is going to turn out to be an error on the Councils part is stressful to say the least.
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