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Charge certificate plus more, What is the next step?
chrisSM
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:03
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Hi there. I just want to say I tried to find what to do now on this forum but I'm stock on statutory declaration. From where I can get this, council should send this to me? Last letter from them ( order for recovery) informed me I have to : "File a statutory declaration on the enclosed form and send it to the Traffic Enforcement Center..."
They didn't enclosed this declaration. From where I can take this? Please note, 1st correspondence regarding this PCN was Charge Certificate, never received PCN etc









Thank you

Chris
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post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:03
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cp8759
post Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 22:32
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QUOTE (chrisSM @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 23:11) *
Hi. Still nothing change when I want to pay, still £203.

That's good, I would keep taking a screenshot once a day so we have a good evidential trail. Assuming the "fresh penalty charge notice" is deemed to be served on 24 May, the deadline for reps is 20 June so I'd be tempted to send penalty exceeds representations around the middle of next week. Bump in around a week and I'll draft something.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 10:31
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We wait with bated breath.

It's a bit like Stingray ---


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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chrisSM
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 09:55
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Hi Just FYI still £203 on their website. Have a nice weekend :-)
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 13:45
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Well this is interesting, I was sure they would have fixed it by now.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 13:48
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 14:45) *
Well this is interesting, I was sure they would have fixed it by now.

Just a typical Council 'in-tray' thing?

'Why do today when you can do it --- whenever'


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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chrisSM
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:14
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Hi. It is now the time to think about penalty exceeds representations ? Still 203 for pay on their website.
Thank you

This post has been edited by chrisSM: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:24
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cp8759
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 20:15
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QUOTE (chrisSM @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 20:14) *
Hi. It is now the time to think about penalty exceeds representations ? Still 203 for pay on their website.
Thank you

Yeah go on then, why not. They want to play smarty pants to let's throw it right back at them. Send them a copy of the revocation order, a copy of your email sent to the TEC on 23 May, and today's screenshot. Use italics and bold below exactly as I have. As always get a certificate of postage from the Post Office. IMPORTANT: You should post your representations on Thursday 14 June, not earlier and not later. Keep taking a screenshot every day in any event.


-----------------------------
Dear Sir or Madam,

Representations against the fresh Penalty Charge Notice deemed to have been served on 24 May 2018

As you will now be aware, I never received the original Penalty Charge Notice. I first became aware of the matter upon receipt of the Order for Recovery, dated 17 May 2018. Very helpfully the council provided a copy of the original Penalty Charge Notice, so I was made aware of the details of the allegation at this early stage. As is now a matter of record, I filed a statutory declaration with the County Court and the Order for Recovery was revoked by order of the court dated 25 May 2018 (copy enclosed).

As you can see from the enclosed email, the Statutory Declaration was sent to the County Court on 23 May 2018 at 9:20 pm. Paragraph 4.2 of Practice Direction 5B to the Civil Procedure Rules provides that:

"4.2 Where an e-mail, including any attachment, is sent pursuant to this practice direction and the e-mail is recorded by HMCTS e-mail software as received by the court at or after 4.00pm and before or at 11.59pm—
(a) the date of receipt of the e-mail will be deemed to be the next day the court office is open;
(b) the date of issue of any application will not be before that date; and
( c) any document attached to that e-mail will be treated as filed on that date.
"

It follows that the Statutory Declaration is deemed to have been filed at court on 24 May 2018. Paragraph 7(9) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that (my emphasis):

"Service of a declaration under sub-paragraph (2)(a) above shall not prevent the enforcing authority serving a fresh penalty charge notice but if, when it was served, the relevant order under paragraph 6 was accompanied by a copy of the penalty charge notice to which the charge certificate relates, a fresh penalty charge notice in the same terms shall be deemed to have been served on the person making the declaration on the same day as the declaration was served."

As the council helpfully provided a copy of the PCN with the Order for Recovery, a fresh penalty charge notice in the same terms is deemed to have been served on 24 May 2018 as this is the day that the Statutory Declaration is deemed to have been filed with the County Court. It follows that the period of 14 days during which the council was required to accept payment of the discounted penalty of £65 ended on 6 June 2018, and the period of 28 days during which the amount of £130 must be paid or representations must be made will end on 20 Jun 2018. Therefore as a matter of law, the amount of the Penalty Charge Notice due as of right now is £130.

However as you can see from the enclosed screenshot, the amount demanded on the council website is £203. As the revocation order issued by the County Court would is deemed to have been served on 29 May (unless the council can show that it was not), there has been ample time now for the council to update its systems to reflect the correct amount of the Penalty Charge Notice.

One of the statutory grounds to appeal a Penalty Charge Notice is that "the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case"; the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case is £130 but the council is demanding a penalty of £203. It follow that the penalty charge exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case, and the fresh Penalty Charge Notice must therefore be cancelled.

Yours faithfully

chrisSM

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 20:16


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 23:29
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 21:15) *
IMPORTANT: You should post your representations on Thursday 14 June, not earlier and not later.

? Go on, clue me up.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:49
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 00:29) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 21:15) *
IMPORTANT: You should post your representations on Thursday 14 June, not earlier and not later.

? Go on, clue me up.

If they go sooner, it gives the council more time to go "Holey moley we'd better fix that" and change the amount on the website to £130 or even worse £65, if it goes later, it's deemed served after 20 June so it's too late as it would be outside the 28 day period. If it goes on 14 June, it's deemed served on Monday 18 June so the representations are in time and the council must consider them, but it's unlikely that they'll consider them on that day as it will likely be in someone's intray for a few days. The objective here is to get screenshots right up to the end of the 28 day period, showing that the amount demanded remained at £203 at all times.

The law is a bit foggy here because the council must by necessary implication be awarded some amount of time to receive the revocation order and update the website, but if the appellant can show that on every single day of the 28 day period the council never allowed him to pay the £130 charge, the appelant has had no opportunity to pay the "fresh" PCN before the end of the 28 day period. If preventing the motorist from paying the £130 charge before the 28 day period is up isn't "penalty exceeds", I don't know what is.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:50


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 13:01
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Ok.
I just didn't understand the 2 day buffer you are employing.
All good.

I'm not fully convinced they're being as clever/crafty as we thought but we'll find out soon.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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chrisSM
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 13:49
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Hello everyone. Today is changed to 65 pounds. What to do?
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 16:08
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QUOTE (chrisSM @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:49) *
Hello everyone. Today is changed to 65 pounds. What to do?

It possibly means they've just issued a new PCN and that in itself is the wrong action.

Hmmmmmm, thinking.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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chrisSM
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:33
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This is how it looks like when check PCN



This post has been edited by chrisSM: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:37
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:35
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Too small.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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chrisSM
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:58
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Maybe now:

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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 22:07
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That changes things slightly, but at this point there's nothing to lose so send this asap:
---------

Dear Sir or Madam,

Representations against the fresh Penalty Charge Notice deemed to have been served on 24 May 2018

As you will now be aware, I never received the original Penalty Charge Notice. I first became aware of the matter upon receipt of the Order for Recovery, dated 17 May 2018. Very helpfully the council provided a copy of the original Penalty Charge Notice, so I was made aware of the details of the allegation at this early stage. As is now a matter of record, I filed a statutory declaration with the County Court and the Order for Recovery was revoked by order of the court dated 25 May 2018 (copy enclosed).

As you can see from the enclosed email, the Statutory Declaration was sent to the County Court on 23 May 2018 at 9:20 pm. Paragraph 4.2 of Practice Direction 5B to the Civil Procedure Rules provides that:

"4.2 Where an e-mail, including any attachment, is sent pursuant to this practice direction and the e-mail is recorded by HMCTS e-mail software as received by the court at or after 4.00pm and before or at 11.59pm—
(a) the date of receipt of the e-mail will be deemed to be the next day the court office is open;
(b) the date of issue of any application will not be before that date; and
( c) any document attached to that e-mail will be treated as filed on that date.
"

It follows that the Statutory Declaration is deemed to have been filed at court on 24 May 2018. Paragraph 7(9) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that (my emphasis):

"Service of a declaration under sub-paragraph (2)(a) above shall not prevent the enforcing authority serving a fresh penalty charge notice but if, when it was served, the relevant order under paragraph 6 was accompanied by a copy of the penalty charge notice to which the charge certificate relates, a fresh penalty charge notice in the same terms shall be deemed to have been served on the person making the declaration on the same day as the declaration was served."

As the council helpfully provided a copy of the PCN with the Order for Recovery, a fresh penalty charge notice in the same terms is deemed to have been served on 24 May 2018 as this is the day that the Statutory Declaration is deemed to have been filed with the County Court. It follows that the period of 14 days during which the council was required to accept payment of the discounted penalty of £65 ended on 6 June 2018, and the period of 28 days during which the amount of £130 must be paid or representations must be made will end on 20 Jun 2018. Therefore as a matter of law, the amount of the Penalty Charge Notice due as of Tuesday 12 June 2018 was £130.

However as you can see from the enclosed screenshot, the amount demanded on the council website as of Tuesday 12 June 2018 was £203. As the revocation order issued by the County Court would is deemed to have been served on 29 May (unless the council can show that it was not), there has been ample time for the council to update its systems to reflect the correct amount of the Penalty Charge Notice.

One of the statutory grounds to appeal a Penalty Charge Notice is that "the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case"; the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case is £130 but the council is demanding a penalty of £203. It follow that the penalty charge exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case, and the fresh Penalty Charge Notice must therefore be cancelled.

Yours faithfully

chrisSM
-------------------------------

With a bit of luck they'll mess up the response and then you can get them for failure to consider. However it would help if, when it comes to the adjudicator, we had something to say about the contravention. Can you get the video from the council website and post it on here?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 23:39
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I'm in two minds because the only way that screen can be showing £65 is if a new PCN has now been issued.
That would mean they never were being 'clever' with the part of the Act I flagged up (or a different clerk has changed
the situation).
A new PCN now, when we know the law says one was, effectively, issued 24/5 should be disastrous for them.

I'm thinking we should wait a day: We have the leeway.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 00:06
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 00:39) *
I'm in two minds because the only way that screen can be showing £65 is if a new PCN has now been issued.

Or the council might used discretion to reinstate / extend the discount period. If the council served a letter saying "A fresh PCN was deemed to be served on 24 May 2018, and we are now offering you a further 14 days from the date of this letter to pay the reduced rate of £65", we're in a bit of a pickle. I agree it's unlikely, but it's not impossible.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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chrisSM
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 10:48
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Received today:
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Neil B
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:02
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LOL.
Well it's wrong but it's in your favour, which is awkward.

I shall now go and put my head in a saucepan and simmer for a while. huh.gif


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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