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Charge certificate plus more, What is the next step?
chrisSM
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:03
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Hi there. I just want to say I tried to find what to do now on this forum but I'm stock on statutory declaration. From where I can get this, council should send this to me? Last letter from them ( order for recovery) informed me I have to : "File a statutory declaration on the enclosed form and send it to the Traffic Enforcement Center..."
They didn't enclosed this declaration. From where I can take this? Please note, 1st correspondence regarding this PCN was Charge Certificate, never received PCN etc









Thank you

Chris
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post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:03
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chrisSM
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 09:35
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Hello. I sent it few days ago but I didn't receive any confirmation. Is that typical? Thanks in advance
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Neil B
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 12:08
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QUOTE (chrisSM @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 10:35) *
Hello. I sent it few days ago but I didn't receive any confirmation. Is that typical? Thanks in advance

By email ?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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chrisSM
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 23:07
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Yes Neil by email
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Neil B
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 23:20
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QUOTE (chrisSM @ Mon, 28 May 2018 - 00:07) *
Yes Neil by email

That always gets an acknowledgement email, in my experience.

Choices -
Send again (it can do no harm)
or
Phone them Tuesday to confirm being processed. 0300 123 1059


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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chrisSM
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 21:11
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Hi Neil, good news:


What is the next step?
Thanks,
Chris
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Neil B
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 21:23
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QUOTE (chrisSM @ Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 22:11) *
What is the next step?

Ealing have 28 days to send you a ne PCN - or they have to cancel it.

I can't see a date on that Order ?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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chrisSM
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 21:38
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25 may 2018 is in the middle on the right side Neil. Waiting for council respond then. Thanks Neil

Neil but on this Order is information:
" You should contact the local authority as they may take future action on it. The authority should inform you asap if it's intends to do so."

I should contact them or not?

This post has been edited by chrisSM: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 21:38
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Neil B
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 21:39
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No, hang on, I just found something: I can't remember us seeing this happen before; we have to think about it.

From the legislation -
"(9)Service of a declaration under sub-paragraph (2)(a) above shall not prevent the enforcing authority serving a fresh penalty charge notice but if, when it was served, the relevant order under paragraph 6 was accompanied by a copy of the penalty charge notice to which the charge certificate relates, a fresh penalty charge notice in the same terms shall be deemed to have been served on the person making the declaration on the same day as the declaration was served."

Which means, as I read it, you already have the new PCN.

Wait for others' views: I will whistle up the cavalry.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 08:05


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Neil B
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 08:20
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Morning Chris.

Looking at the section of the legislation above, it seems you are deemed to have received a new PCN.
I'm not quite clear but I think it is deemed to be dated 25th May (?).

That leaves the discount £65 in play, only until 7th June.
You now have to decide whether you want to pay or fight it.

But we can't be sure how Ealing are understanding process at this point, so your first task is to check the
current status of the PCN online - and take a screenshot in case we need it.

------
Connell Cres has been a big issue and I'm sure others here can advise you on that.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 08:46


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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DancingDad
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 09:19
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This bit of the cavalry has arrived but is milling around in confusion.

Can't remember seeing a PCN copy sent with an OfR before or for that matter, seen the significance of it under LLAA2003.
But agree with Neil, it would seem that whether Ealing recognise it or not, you must set deadline of 7th June to either challenge or pay at discount.
Getting PCN status and screenshots is valuable.
If they have not reset to discount amount, ground of penalty exceeds can be claimed and IMO shown to be valid against the legislation.
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cp8759
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 10:02
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 09:20) *
Morning Chris.

Looking at the section of the legislation above, it seems you are deemed to have received a new PCN.
I'm not quite clear but I think it is deemed to be dated 25th May (?).

I don't think so, "on the same day as the declaration was served" can only refer to the Statutory Declaration, the Statutory Declaration was sent to the court by email so they must have received it before 25 May. If chrisSM sent the email before 4pm on a working day, the deemed date of service of the PCN is the day he sent the email to the TEC, in all other cases the deemed date of service of the PCN is the next working day after the email was sent.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 10:17
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:02) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 09:20) *
Morning Chris.

Looking at the section of the legislation above, it seems you are deemed to have received a new PCN.
I'm not quite clear but I think it is deemed to be dated 25th May (?).

I don't think so, "on the same day as the declaration was served" can only refer to the Statutory Declaration, the Statutory Declaration was sent to the court by email so they must have received it before 25 May. If chrisSM sent the email before 4pm on a working day, the deemed date of service of the PCN is the day he sent the email to the TEC, in all other cases the deemed date of service of the PCN is the next working day after the email was sent.

TEC say they filed the declaration on 25th, I reckon that is the safe date to use for service.
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cp8759
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 10:25
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:17) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:02) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 09:20) *
Morning Chris.

Looking at the section of the legislation above, it seems you are deemed to have received a new PCN.
I'm not quite clear but I think it is deemed to be dated 25th May (?).

I don't think so, "on the same day as the declaration was served" can only refer to the Statutory Declaration, the Statutory Declaration was sent to the court by email so they must have received it before 25 May. If chrisSM sent the email before 4pm on a working day, the deemed date of service of the PCN is the day he sent the email to the TEC, in all other cases the deemed date of service of the PCN is the next working day after the email was sent.

TEC say they filed the declaration on 25th, I reckon that is the safe date to use for service.

The date of service is defined by the Civil Procedure Rules, under Practice Direction 5B paragraph 4.2 https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...rt05/pd_part05b

The court order *should* reflect this, but if it doesn't the practice direction prevails.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:16
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and as you've said to me cp, the wording of the leg. doesn't quite might sense, so perhaps there's a later amendment?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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cp8759
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:37
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 12:16) *
and as you've said to me cp, the wording of the leg. doesn't quite might sense, so perhaps there's a later amendment?

I doubt they'd bother making an amendment just to change "on the same day as the declaration was served" to "on the same day as the declaration was filed", it's semantics and wouldn't make any material difference. I had a quick look for amendments but didn't find anything relevant.

At this point, as I see it, chrisSM needs to tell us the date and time he sent the email to the TEC so we can work out the relevant timeframes.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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chrisSM
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 17:22
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Hello,
Nothing change on Ealing website:



If there is any ground for challenge then I'm happy to try ( if still 65 pounds will be for pay if they declined).
1st email to TEC was send on:
23 May 2018, 21:20
I didn't receive any confirmation then I resent this email to the exactly same email address on:
29 May 2018, 04:39
And after that I'm recived confirmation from them.

This post has been edited by chrisSM: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 17:35
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cp8759
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 18:09
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So the TEC must have acted on the first email, as the 2nd email is dated after the date of the revoking order. The email sent on 23 May 2018 at 9:20 pm is deemed to be filed with the court on 24 May 2018.

The real problem is what did Parliament mean with "a fresh penalty charge notice in the same terms"? This could mean a penalty charge notice which, in the ordinary course of events, would have been served on 24 May 2018. This would make the date of the PCN 22 May 2018, making the last day of the discount period Monday 4 June. This is the interpretation that most closely ties in with the wording of the Act, but it also gives the shortest possible discount period.

If the deemed date of the PCN is 24 May 2018, the discount period ends on 6 June 2018, but a PCN issued on 24 May 2018 could not be served on that date.

We also have to consider that the Statutory Declaration is sent to the court, not the council, so the council doesn't find out about it until it gets the revoking order. It must be assumed the council have a reasonable amount of time to act on the order (or else you could file an SD and immediately claim a penalty exceeds defence, which would frustrate the purpose of the legislation), but it doesn't look like this has ever been tested before the tribunal.

I'd be tempted to take a screenshot from the council website each day next week, if by 6 June it's still more than £65, a penalty exceeds appeal should be successful.The likelihood of the council officers being able to get their heads round this stuff and properly consider the representations are, IMO, very remote.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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chrisSM
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 19:07
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Thank You for that. I will do screenshot every day now.
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Neil B
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 21:47
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 19:09) *
The likelihood of the council officers being able to get their heads round this stuff and properly consider the representations are, IMO, very remote.

Well that's true but I had also been thinking someone at the Council might have read the same and be trying to be clever?
They'll be unable to see it through though; rhey'll fall on their arse at some point.

No surprise the website still says OfR stage as the revoking Order will still be in the 'in' tray, Monday may see a change.


QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 10:19) *
If they have not reset to discount amount, ground of penalty exceeds can be claimed and IMO shown to be valid against the legislation.

Well yes and if this is to be the PCN we're halfway there aren't we? The payment slip doesn't allow it.

--
I think though, that we should be prepping reps now, if that's the way we go.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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chrisSM
post Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 22:11
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Hi. Still nothing change when I want to pay, still £203.
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