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Croydon school entrance (Saturday)
Ellie Croydon
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 20:44
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Guys,

I've received a ticket after parking on marked school entrance. I did this on the basis that the restriction is not effective on a Saturday. As such, I believe it reverts to a SYL which per the other signs on this section of the road (no pic and not referenced in council evidence) is either pay and display or use your permit. I am a permit holder which was clearly in view and has been included in the council's evidence. Not sure if the 5 tonne / school bus white sign below the main yellow has any relevance or means I was wrong. Any help appreciated.

Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lennard+R...33;4d-0.1036419




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post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 20:44
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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 20:25
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I don't know what a loading gap is, but the contravention is "Parked in a part of a parking place marked by a yellow line where waiting is prohibited"

Whatever you may say about the place where Ellie parked, it was definitely not a parking place. Therefore the alleged contravention did not occur. Furthermore, there's an 0845 number that includes a service charge, this makes the PCN unlawful in any event.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Ellie Croydon
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 06:36
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 21:25) *
Furthermore, there's an 0845 number that includes a service charge, this makes the PCN unlawful in any event.


Great spot! Thanks, I'll add that to my armoury. The authority I've found for this, for the benefit of future readers is:

The use of an 0845 number is a breach of Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 which became effective 13 June 2014. The 0845 number also breaches the industry Code of Practice.

Communicating an 084, 087, 09 or 118 number without declaring the call costs immediately alongside breaches Ofcom regulations, the 'conditions binding non-providers', effective 1 July 2015.


As for the definition of parking place, notwithstanding the fact that a council website is probably not going to cut it as a reference at appeal, Croydon Council CPZ page states, "All parking places in a CPZ are marked as white boxes" - given, as you say, that there are no marked bays where I parked it would appear the code selected is wrong on the face of it. However, it also goes on to say, "Any yellow line separating two or more spaces in a parking place is a loading gap" - so from their perspective, this is why the code selected is legitimate I suppose. However, I don't see how they can switch between space and place and expect it to be clear to the road user. I've also found some authority for the proposition that loading gaps are essentially made up and not legally enforceable in terms of parking offences. This, along with the confusion brought by the prominence of the school ziz-zag marking is hopefully held to be a legitimate defence.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 08:21
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QUOTE (Ellie Croydon @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 07:36) *
"Any yellow line separating two or more spaces in a parking place is a loading gap"


Clearly that 'gap' outside the school is no such thing as it's far too long. But this must be a red herring - we need to stick to the contravention given.

For me, code 20 would apply to a yellow line running in parking bays, which we often see, but code 20 is an oddity as it isn't needed - codes 01/02 are fine.

Or maybe it does have another specific use - as I said, Wandsworth describes it as ""a yellow line inbetween two parking spaces" - which makes no sense to me.

Most councils don't use code 20 I reckon - it isn't listed in their code list.

London Councils has it as below as per Wandsworth, again the code description making no sense to me. But note the ref to 'loading gap'.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:11
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hcandersen
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:46
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Their evidence:
PCN alleging a contravention in a parking place;
A response stating (presumably because this is what was recorded by the CEO) that the contravention occurred because ‘you were parked on a stretch of yellow line between two parking bays’ which had been clearly termnated.

Classic.

OP, where are their photos, which are the third strand of their evidence at this stage?

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Ellie Croydon
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 12:14
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 12:46) *
OP, where are their photos, which are the third strand of their evidence at this stage?




Does this suffice?

Street View link here.



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:21) *
London Councils has it as below as per Wandsworth, again the code description making no sense to me. But note the ref to 'loading gap'.



The only key differences between this example and my offence is 1) the length of the so-called 'loading gap' (I'm guessing from the sentiment on the thread that the length of it precludes it from being a parking place, but I can see why the CEO selected the code. And 2) the whole gap is a school keep clear area which led to the original confusion, as explained above.
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:42
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:21) *
Most councils don't use code 20 I reckon - it isn't listed in their code list.

It's a nationwide code though, see https://www.patrol-uk.info/contravention-codes/

I would challenge on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur, as the OP was not parked in a parking place.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:44


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:53
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:21) *
Most councils don't use code 20 I reckon - it isn't listed in their code list.

It's a nationwide code though, see https://www.patrol-uk.info/contravention-codes/

I would challenge on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur, as the OP was not parked in a parking place.


a yellow line is present, so an adjudicator could find that this was enough and the contravention description is SC. I think the argument re confusion caused when there is a school time plate and SYL so there should also be a time plate for that should also be used to re inforce the no contravention argument
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