PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Croydon school entrance (Saturday)
Ellie Croydon
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 20:44
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 20 May 2018
Member No.: 98,041



Guys,

I've received a ticket after parking on marked school entrance. I did this on the basis that the restriction is not effective on a Saturday. As such, I believe it reverts to a SYL which per the other signs on this section of the road (no pic and not referenced in council evidence) is either pay and display or use your permit. I am a permit holder which was clearly in view and has been included in the council's evidence. Not sure if the 5 tonne / school bus white sign below the main yellow has any relevance or means I was wrong. Any help appreciated.

Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lennard+R...33;4d-0.1036419




Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 20:44
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 20:58
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,648
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



What is the restriction for the yellow line?

They have used the wrong contravention as you were not in a parking place buts let get everything lined up
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 21:00
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,419
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



I've not seen code 20 before - as PMB says looks like a wrong one.

Is it in a controlled parking zone? They don't need templates for single yellow lines, only signs at entrance to the zone. Or templates if different from the CPZ.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 21:01
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,226
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



Plus this little gem if it's still there:-
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lennard+R...33;4d-0.1036419
Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ellie Croydon
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 21:04
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 20 May 2018
Member No.: 98,041





"Single yellow lines or stripes mean no waiting or loading at the times indicated on nearby signs or signs at entry points to the Controlled Parking Zones (CPZs). Please read these carefully."

The only nearby sign other than the ones above is this one. Given no times are offered I assumed the restriction is to have a ticket or permit (outside the school restriction times).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 21:04
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,419
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 20 May 2018 - 22:01) *
Plus this little gem if it's still there:-
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lennard+R...33;4d-0.1036419


Use to have bays by the looks of it - CEO obviously in a time warp. I expect they've opened a new school entrance.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lennard+R...33;4d-0.1036419
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 21:17
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,419
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Lennard Road is in the Croydon North CPZ. Map of all zones here:

http://maps.croydon.gov.uk/aya/pages/aya/a...d-parking-zones

OP - this means you mustn't park on single yellows during controlled hours. We think you may have been lucky here and even with the correct code there is grounds for confusion not only with the school markings but the parking sign.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Sun, 20 May 2018 - 22:26
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,226
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



This one might help:-

216009994A



This case seems to me to be a classic example of the confusion that very often arises when a length of carriageway is at some times subject to a school entrance stopping restriction and at other times subject to a standard waiting restriction. There is nothing unlawful about such an arrangement; indeed it is not at all uncommon. However what can so easily happen is that the motorist’s attention is drawn to the very large school entrance sign which the motorist then assumes is the only restriction in force. The effect of the underlying single yellow line is easily overlooked, particularly where, as in this case, the line is not plated because it is within a controlled parking zone.

I am firmly of the view that a Council that wishes to operate this combination of restrictions must ensure that they are indicated clearly and correctly. The latest edition (2008) of Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual specifically deals with this situation at paragraph 9.17:-

“Where both the KEEP CLEAR marking and the mandatory sign to diagram 642.2A are used on a road that is subject to a prohibition of waiting the latter should be independently signed, with the yellow line to diagram 1017 or 1018 running behind the KEEP CLEAR marking …As waiting restriction signs are spaced at approximately 60 m intervals…it is possible there might not be such a sign alongside the KEEP CLEAR marking. However it would be helpful to drivers to provide a sign (except where the restriction is no waiting at any time) as a reminder that waiting restrictions apply during the period when the prohibition of stopping does not. The sign could be co-located with diagram 642.2A. This also applies within a controlled parking zone where upright signs are normally dispensed with…” (emphasis added)

The Traffic Signs Manual is not law as such. However it is very detailed official guidance from the Department for Transport and I take the view that where issues of clarity of signage arise a failure by a Council to follow its recommendations (particularly one as specific and pertinent as the one set out above) places on them a heavy evidential burden to demonstrate that despite the non-compliance the signage is nevertheless clear. In the present case there is no evidence of the presence of the recommended co-located signage (indeed no evidence of any CPZ signage either). I am not satisfied that there is anything to suggest that there was some particular feature of this location that made it unnecessary to follow the TSM recommendation. In my view this is a case where, CPZ or no, for clarity a time plate is required on the same post as the school entrance sign. The Appeal is therefore allowed.

___________________________________

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 06:23
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,551
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Hope this gets to appeal, adjudicators are (in the main) human and deserve a laugh now and again.

Contravention is nonsense. Signs are nonsense.

Specifically, the contravention alleges/the signs convey that at the location there co-exist 3 separate restrictions, namely:
A 24/7 parking place;
A part-time stopping;
A part-time waiting.

Nooooooo.

You can't have 1 with either 2 or 3.

Carry on and if they're ignorant enough to continue to resist win at adj and, based on previously well-crafted reps, claim costs.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ellie Croydon
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 08:49
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 20 May 2018
Member No.: 98,041



Thanks all.

I will email the council today through their formal appeal channel, but in the interests of quick feedback, my argument will be as follows:

1) CEO has selected a contravention code which has no relevance to this section of the road. Code 20 alleges the existence of a 24/7 parking space which cannot be reconciled with the part-time stopping/waiting restriction created by the school entrance markings and signage.

2) There is a pay and display sign [attach] without timing restrictions which invites the reasonable driver to conclude that, while the single yellow line is effective, the restriction it imposes is that a ticket or permit should be displayed. Per the evidence provided by the CEO a valid permit was on display. The council's own guidance of how to deal with a single yellow line recommends nearby signs are read carefully - the proximity of the signage to where the alleged parking offence occurred creates the expectation that it applies notwithstanding other relevant CPZ restrictions.

3) No evidence has been provided by the CEO in terms of adequate entrance signs to the CPZ imposing timing restrictions on parking on single yellow lines at the time the PCN was issued. The Traffic Signs Manual places heavy evidential burden on the council to prove that co-located signage is clear, and this has not been established.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ellie Croydon
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 10:02
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 20 May 2018
Member No.: 98,041



Actually, I may have to drop 2) - seems the sign is no longer there looking more closely at the evidence. Compared to G Street View a whole patch of tarmac has been reset. I'll go back and check it tonight.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 11:51
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,909
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



Although everything seems to be wrong with this and you apparently have a strong case, I can't see any Council
pics or cogent description of exactly where you parked?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ellie Croydon
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 13:11
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 20 May 2018
Member No.: 98,041



Mine is the white VW. The council evidence contains more photos but they're all just different angles of the car, sign uploaded and my valid permit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 14:30
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,909
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



I'm losing the plot lately; dunno how I missed the pics.

I echo all previous views, for what it's worth.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ellie Croydon
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 14:45
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 20 May 2018
Member No.: 98,041



You're not my CEO are you? tongue.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 14:50
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,648
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



I can see one route into the zone that wasn't signed when the GSV car went by From the Along the A236 onto Sutherland rd to pendevon rd onto London rd

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lennard+R...33;4d-0.1036419

If you can enter a zone without passing signs then they cannot enforce, regardless of the contravention



http://maps.croydon.gov.uk/aya/pages/aya/a...d-parking-zones

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 21 May 2018 - 14:51
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ellie Croydon
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 15:51
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 20 May 2018
Member No.: 98,041



Thanks. If you zoom out to the main road and look down Sutherland (more recent GSV footage) it seems there is one now.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3822044,-...3312!8i6656
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ellie Croydon
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 10:09
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 20 May 2018
Member No.: 98,041



Hello all

My appeal to the council was rejected as follows:




Any opinions welcome. I do plan to appeal as the scope for confusion has been upheld enough times before for me to consider it worth a go. Is anyone still of the opinion that code 20 has wrongly been used? And if so, why?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 10:52
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,419
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



It seems to me this is a straightforward 01 contravention but this rare code 20 seems to mean "a yellow line inbetween two parking spaces" (according to Wandsworth) so may just be an alternative to code 01 or 02 in this situation. Camden for example doesn't list code 20 and presumably doesn't use it.

But the contravention is "Parked in a part of a parking place..." which leads me to also think there is a parking places order between the bays, as that sign that is no longer there did say.

Croydon is calling it a 'loading gap' for some reason.

Need some debate on this.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 10:54
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:39
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,648
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Reply is rubbish. A loading gap between to parking bays biggrin.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Saturday, 23rd June 2018 - 17:47
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.