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Another Northern Rail "Penalty Parking Notice"
NotEve
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 19:30
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Hi Everyone, someone i know of received as the title suggests, a "Penalty Parking Notice" from Northern Rail. This was for "not parked in a MARKED BAY (3)".

To remove any ambiguity, I have (hopefully) attached an obfuscated photograph of said ticket. From what I can tell, there is no third party operator involved. Just Northern Rail and the Bye-laws.

I know there have been several topics around this here and elsewhere, and I've read several of them but I am still unsure how to proceed. Here is the story.

Today the driver parked in their usual train station car park. Although they arrived at their usual time, it was unusually full. They had no choice but to park at the end of a row of bays. They know where they parked not to be an obstruction as they have parked in the row of spaces perpendicular to where they parked today (and indeed, drivers park here every day for as long as theyhave used the car park) and they know it does not obstruct any cars entering or exiting the park. They drive around the cars parked where they parked today on a daily basis without issue.

They have an annual season ticket holder which entitles them to park at no extra cost. Other car park users must use the ticket machine. They are not aware of anywhere else to park safely in the surrounding area outside the Station grounds. There was nothing they could have done and they had to get to work.

Is it worth appealing? Is there any way they can reasonably argue this ticket? Or is it just one of those things they'll have to pay? It's not like they do not admit that the parked outside a Marked bay, but they did not believe that this was something they couldn't do as other users park exactly where they did and in another 5 similar "spaces" at the end of each row of bays every day. They feel that given they didn't cause an obstruction and had no choice to park where they did and that their parking is already paid for in the £1,300 annual season ticket they purchase, that they can't find a way to justify paying them another £50 for the lack of facilities being available to them.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 19:51
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post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 19:30
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ostell
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 10:35
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You have been told not to infer who the driver was. Look at post #15. The keeper has absorbed......
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 10:54
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Not dientifying the driver is, hwoever, NOT something you need to be an expert in. You just dont ID the driver!
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NotEve
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 12:39
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 11:35) *
You have been told not to infer who the driver was. Look at post #15. The keeper has absorbed......


You would be inferring. I could only insinuate.

The information here has been shown to the driver. It is the responsibility of the driver and the keeper to formulate a plan on what they wish to do. It's the driver who had first hand experience of the parking situation so it is the driver who has to evaluate whether their understanding of the situation warrants challenge and then agree that with the keeper..

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 11:54) *
Not dientifying the driver is, hwoever, NOT something you need to be an expert in. You just dont ID the driver!



Disagree. But that's fine. If you're not happy to help in this regard, hopefully someone else will. I'd rather not continue going back and forth on this.

Thank you for your help until this point.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 12:42
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You cant "disagree", not meanigfully anyway, because is is utterly trivial to not identify the driver in a document you as keeper draft. People manage it here every day.

I also told you how to be sure - by posting a draft here first.

You are making this way more difficult sounding than it actually is.

This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 12:43
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NotEve
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 12:48
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 13:42) *
You cant "disagree", not meanigfully anyway, because is is utterly trivial to not identify the driver in a document you as keeper draft. People manage it here every day.

I also told you how to be sure - by posting a draft here first.

You are making this way more difficult sounding than it actually is.


I'm sorry but this is daunting to me. I've never dealt with the law. I've never dealt with a parking ticket. I've never written in obfuscation. I don't want to lie. ...and this is a risk. There is nothing trivial about going to court
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 12:53
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SMall claims court is relatively trivial. Max of about £200 at play, as you will have seen from reading around. Its also a small office, with the judge just havinga bigger desk than the other two parties. Again, trivial to find out about by reading through completed cases here.

There is no lying or obfuscation involved. Just dont reveal who drove the car. Its done by complete newbies like yourself every single day here, so it CAN BE DONE - stop making this harder than it needs to be on yourself. youre building this up way to high.
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kommando
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 12:55
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There is no need to lie, just do not identify the driver, there is no legal requirement to do so, post your intended reply here so others can check.

Its not unusual for posters to take 3 edits to remove the drivers identity from a post, one recent poster gave up never to be seen again.
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NotEve
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 13:15
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 13:53) *
SMall claims court is relatively trivial. Max of about £200 at play, as you will have seen from reading around. Its also a small office, with the judge just havinga bigger desk than the other two parties. Again, trivial to find out about by reading through completed cases here.

There is no lying or obfuscation involved. Just dont reveal who drove the car. Its done by complete newbies like yourself every single day here, so it CAN BE DONE - stop making this harder than it needs to be on yourself. youre building this up way to high.


Understood. Thank you.

Forgive my misunderstanding, but where does small claimed come into it? It's magistrates court I'm concerned about. Or are they the same thing?

QUOTE (kommando @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 13:55) *
There is no need to lie, just do not identify the driver, there is no legal requirement to do so, post your intended reply here so others can check.

Its not unusual for posters to take 3 edits to remove the drivers identity from a post, one recent poster gave up never to be seen again.


OK understood. Thanks.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 13:23
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APologies. Magistrates is also nothing too crazy. EIther one judge or a lay bench of three mags.
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ostell
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 14:18
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QUOTE (NotEve @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 13:39) *
The information here has been shown to the driver. It is the responsibility of the driver and the keeper to formulate a plan on what they wish to do. It's the driver who had first hand experience of the parking situation so it is the driver who has to evaluate whether their understanding of the situation warrants challenge and then agree that with the keeper..

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 11:54) *
Not dientifying the driver is, hwoever, NOT something you need to be an expert in. You just dont ID the driver!



Disagree. But that's fine. If you're not happy to help in this regard, hopefully someone else will. I'd rather not continue going back and forth on this.

Thank you for your help until this point.


Are you having trouble understanding the suggestions? We have asked you to forget the driver, you alone will be handling this as the keeper

There's no need to continue back and forth, just follow the suggestions etc that are given by those who know. You will be snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory if you continue like this.
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NotEve
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 14:27
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 15:18) *
Are you having trouble understanding the suggestions?



Yes.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 14:29
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Then you need to do more reading on station carparks. What have you done so far?
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NotEve
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 14:31
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 15:29) *
Then you need to do more reading on station carparks. What have you done so far?


Spent about 2.5 hours reading threads here and on another forums that link back to here. Looked up various articles, threads and requests for information on the enforcement of byelaws, read through some legal suggestions in regards to magistrates and the byelaws and posted this thread.
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ManxRed
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 15:28
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There's nothing to prevent a Keeper appealing a ticket. It doesn't have to be the Driver.

Sometimes the Keeper is the Driver, but that's not always the case. They can be two different people.

What we are asking you to do is appeal and correspond stating at all times that you are the Keeper.

You can refer to the Driver in third person, ('the driver parked the vehicle, the driver bought a ticket,' etc...), but you, when writing to these companies, are The Keeper.

They don't know if the Keeper was the Driver or not. You DON'T have to tell them whether this is the case.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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NotEve
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 15:36
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 16:28) *
There's nothing to prevent a Keeper appealing a ticket. It doesn't have to be the Driver.

Sometimes the Keeper is the Driver, but that's not always the case. They can be two different people.

What we are asking you to do is appeal and correspond stating at all times that you are the Keeper.

You can refer to the Driver in third person, ('the driver parked the vehicle, the driver bought a ticket,' etc...), but you, when writing to these companies, are The Keeper.

They don't know if the Keeper was the Driver or not. You DON'T have to tell them whether this is the case.


Yep, thank you. I'm getting it.

I'll draft a response when the time comes and update the thread.

Thanks for the help and patience
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NotEve
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:37
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Uh oh. Although I thought I was being rather vigilant with the post, I found a letter that has been sat around for a little while with some junk mail.

Basically it states there is a new fee that must be paid within 14 days. Failure to pay or challenge will result in Legal action.

Those 14 days have passed. I guess I'm screwed now?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 18:32
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Why do you guess that?
What have you researched about the letter? Obvious searches, who it's from, etc...
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Redivi
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 18:35
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We have no idea

Six weeks have passed and you haven't shown us

1 What if anything you sent as an appeal
2 The reply if you had one
3 The new letter - is it the first one that's been sent ?

By the way, you have never removed the reference number from your picture of the windscreen ticket

This post has been edited by Redivi: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 18:39
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NotEve
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 19:15
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Hi, I have literally picked up where we left off 6 weeks ago. I was waiting for the letter so I could write the appeal. I have just found the letter today (from Northern rail) in a pile of junk that I have somehow missed. This is the first letter I have received as the registered keeper. I have not made any response and the alloted time to do so has already passed by the time I have found the letter.

I am not deliberately obfuscating any information here. I haven't done anything since my last post in this thread except find this letter and open it.
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Gary Bloke
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 21:00
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Some idle observations on this one...
  • Can the sign actually apply to any of the parking areas given that it's not actually in any of them (appears to be in the public road)?
  • The sign is too high up to be read by a motorist driving a car
  • The size of the lettering does not seem to comply with the regulations in the BPA code of practice
  • The sign doesn't make clear whether the car park is being managed by Byelaws or by civil contract (it must be one or the other)
  • It says the maximum penalty is £1000 but fails to explain that this could only be imposed by a Magistrate's court after a successful criminal prosecution for a breach of the Byelaws - isn't that a misrepresentation of the facts, because they are deliberately confusing their home-grown "penalty parking charge" with the real penalty that only a Mags Court could impose?
  • Isn't there a requirement somewhere that the sign must state who is managing the car park (on behalf of whom) - that seems to be completely missing?
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