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Perrmit Zone...no entry warning signs?, Threads merged x3
aspar
post Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 09:49
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Parked up on a street....no yellow lines.

Didn't notice 'Permit Only' sign on a post nearby.

Was new to area and had no idea permits were in operation.

Question is....I seem to recollect that any 'parking permit zones' had to have signs up as you enter the zone [since there are no road markings to indicate]....is this right/binding?? [This is how it is where I live...but this was a different council area]

I ask as I can drive into the streets concerned without seeing any warning signs ...other than the small ones on a post in the street.

I have a feeling that the 'small post signs' trump the need for 'entry warning signs'....would welcome your opinions.

This post has been edited by aspar: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 09:50
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post Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 09:49
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:28
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QUOTE (aspar @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:23) *
I'm sure I read appeals at PATAS [as was] that said if they didn't reply to the informal appeal within 56 days, it was assumed to have been accepted and the PCN cancelled???

But I'm always happy to bow to superior knowledge, thanks



56 days is for formal representation against a NTO
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aspar
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 07:51
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My partner's car has her father down as the RK [but she definitely owns the car]....

He's a major "panicker" and will happily roll over and let the council and private parking scammers shaft him......

So we got a council PCN and made informal appeal online...rejected. He's now had the NTO and is 'worried sick' and wants to pay it.....

There's an option as one of the specified grounds for appeal that is 'I had ceased to be the owner before the date on which the contravention had occurred'...

Can he reply and name her [there's a space to do so] as the 'buyer'...., and the council will then presumably chase her??

Then I'm happy that we can sort out the PCN under appeal [see my previous posting for it being a code 12 issued when the signage says 'Permit holders only which is a code 16...but I digress...]

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aspar
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:02
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Update:
I can appeal online and there's an option where I select if I am keeper/driver/keeper and driver..... so hopefully that means that by me giving my details as driver they will start to chase me.....

Be a bit annoyed if I appeal and they then chase him if rejected.......
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stamfordman
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:05
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Tell him the NTO is for the full amount and there's nothing more to pay if it is appealed further. The RK is liable to respond to the NTO as they are presumed to be the owner, who is liable. You can transfer it but I can't see the point when it's in the family as you can write the appeal for him.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:35
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Who the driver was is irrelevant in terms of liability.
And only the RK has the right to challenge the NTO, they can ignore from anyone else unless the RK confirms that whoever is acting for them.
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aspar
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:45
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 09:05) *
Tell him the NTO is for the full amount and there's nothing more to pay if it is appealed further. The RK is liable to respond to the NTO as they are presumed to be the owner, who is liable. You can transfer it but I can't see the point when it's in the family as you can write the appeal for him.


There's really no point talking to him...he's a total soft touch who believes he'll lose his house and go to prison if he doesn't pay it now....he's one of these people who only wants to whinge about stuff and isn't actually interested in listening to what to do to sort it out.....lol.

The council web appeal has the option to name myself as the driver and to make the 'formal appeal'.....I've asked them to communicate only with me [different address to him so hopefully he'll stop bleating every time a a letter arrives from the council....]

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hcandersen
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:46
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The 'owner' is defined as follows:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/92

And why would a car which is neither owned by him nor which he appears to 'keep' ('my partner's car') be registered to him? Or maybe it's better not to ask?

In any event, as the penalty is for the full amount (although common practice is for the discount to be re-offered after unsuccessful reps) and all correspondence may be conducted by another nominated person AND he can be reassured that he would remain the ultimate decision-maker (I would if it were me) then IMO there is no need to go into other matters which have no bearing on the substantive contravention.
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aspar
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:57
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 09:35) *
Who the driver was is irrelevant in terms of liability.
And only the RK has the right to challenge the NTO, they can ignore from anyone else unless the RK confirms that whoever is acting for them.


As I said ...the web appeal lets me name myself as the driver and make the appeal.....

I'm not sure on the legal standing of that ...eg by allowing that option has the fuill liability transferred to me as the driver [which is exactly what I want] or if they reject it, do they then go back to him for enforcement or are they forced to chase me as the 'offender'.....need to hear opinions ion this...

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 09:46) *
The 'owner' is defined as follows:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/92

And why would a car which is neither owned by him nor which he appears to 'keep' ('my partner's car') be registered to him? Or maybe it's better not to ask?

In any event, as the penalty is for the full amount (although common practice is for the discount to be re-offered after unsuccessful reps) and all correspondence may be conducted by another nominated person AND he can be reassured that he would remain the ultimate decision-maker (I would if it were me) then IMO there is no need to go into other matters which have no bearing on the substantive contravention.


owner: owner”, in relation to a vehicle, means the person by whom the vehicle is kept, which in the case of a vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22) is presumed (unless the contrary is proved) to be the person in whose name the vehicle is registered;

I'm guessing that a letter saying 'I am the owner and happy to take the PCN on' suffices for the bit in bold above [should it come to it]??

Ref owner/rk...why etc....no idea, I wasn't around at the time they did it...was bought new so might be a credit thing.....can't be arsed delving into it unless essential...lol!!

Great that I can get 'nominated'....I'll use that if necessary..but hopefully see my posts above about me doing the formal rep online etc.

thanks again




This post has been edited by aspar: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:58
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DancingDad
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 09:26
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You are in danger of going down a road that will lead to Dad getting hammered.

The NTO must be answered by the RK, the driver has no standing.
Doesn't matter what the website says, if you challenge and identify yourself as the driver, at best they reply to Dad, at worst they ignore.
And are allowed to.
You can challenge but Dad must agree and best if signs a note saying that he does.
You can nominate address to use but again, Dad has to agree.

If he is panicking about an NTO, what will he do when a Charge Certificate lands ?
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hcandersen
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 10:19
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+1

Is there more to this than meets the eye ..

we haven't seen the 'council PCN', the challenge or response;

the response would probably have included the discount option which would have to lapse before a NTO could be served therefore a period of at least 6 weeks would have elapsed since the PCN and at least 2 weeks since the rejection;

therefore 'father' would have been prepared for the NTO unless they had not been kept in the loop....



or is this just my early morning paranoia (or a duplicte thread)?

And we haven't seen the NTO and don't know deadlines, all while the OP pursues a different course during which the clock ticks on relentlessly.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 10:45
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The law is quite simple as regards a NTO. "Representations against notice to owner

4.—(1) The recipient may make representations against a notice to owner to the enforcement authority which served the notice on him.

So only FiL can make reps.. Could he make them to the effect that he was not the owner? yes providing you sign to accept that you are, though a council may well reject this

the only sure way is to make reps in his name with his permission, or just pay it
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Neil B
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 15:22
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QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:57) *
As I said ...the web appeal lets me name myself as the driver and make the appeal.....

Which tells me you're reading in the wrong portal. Finding something to suit your theory.
Anyone can challenge a PCN at the initial informal stage, which you are well beyond.

What would we know? You've neither shown nor mentioned anything that facilitates us checking the above for you.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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lashes1984
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 15:41
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I believe the OP has brought up Owner/Registered Keeper issue before

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116000

And PCN relates to this post:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t=0&start=0

This post has been edited by lashes1984: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 15:46
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Neil B
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 17:32
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QUOTE (lashes1984 @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 15:41) *
I believe the OP has brought up Owner/Registered Keeper issue before

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116000

And PCN relates to this post:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t=0&start=0

One starts to understand why FiL is worried.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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aspar
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 07:56
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 16:22) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:57) *
As I said ...the web appeal lets me name myself as the driver and make the appeal.....

Which tells me you're reading in the wrong portal. Finding something to suit your theory.
Anyone can challenge a PCN at the initial informal stage, which you are well beyond.

What would we know? You've neither shown nor mentioned anything that facilitates us checking the above for you.


I know the difference between the informal and the formal stage I did the informal and the ticket was then marked as 'informal rep underway'...when informal rep was rejected the ticket 'opened up' and the 'formal rep screen' was available [different screen totally] ...the council has now admitted that the webpage should not have let me make a 'formal appeal online' as the driver and 'that needs fixing asap'....


Thanks for your comments, which have been noted.
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peterguk
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 08:03
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QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:51) *
My partner's car has her father down as the RK [but she definitely owns the car]..


Why doesn't she register car in her name - it would certainly save all this aggro in the future?

Insurance cos. don't like privately owned cars being owned/registerd by someone other that the policy holder, assuming she has her own policy and has declared she is not the RK.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 08:05


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aspar
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 10:09
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 09:03) *
QUOTE (aspar @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 08:51) *
My partner's car has her father down as the RK [but she definitely owns the car]..


Why doesn't she register car in her name - it would certainly save all this aggro in the future?

Insurance cos. don't like privately owned cars being owned/registerd by someone other that the policy holder, assuming she has her own policy and has declared she is not the RK.


You're preaching to the converted here mate!!!! lol




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hcandersen
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 12:32
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But this is not dealing with the issue.

Whether you could or couldn't go online is not the point, you're not the recipient of a NTO and therefore unless and until authorised in writing by the recipient, in this case the father, your observations are noted but cannot be grounds for any appeal or reps because there are none for you to make as you have no standing.

So, where does this leave the father?
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stamfordman
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:51
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:32) *
So, where does this leave the father?


He has to leave the NTO to his heirs in his will.

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aspar
post Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 15:19
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UPDATE:
FIL sent email saying daughter was owner, daughter sent another confirming she was owner.

Council has replied saying it won't accept these two emails and say he and she must comply with

S T A T U T O R Y I N S T R U M E N T S
2000 No. 2546
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000

This refers to fixed penalties etc.....

Is it not the case that local council enforced parking has been de-criminalised....???

Would love to tell the council they are wrong....!!!
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