Help with CEL county court claim please! Options

[lookingforhelp:-...]

I have been reading around for a while now and could do with some help, please:


I received a parking 'fine' from Civil Enforcement Ltd back in September last year as my car was parked at Birmingham Botanical Gardens for three hours. Parking is free for members of the Botanical Gardens only you have to enter your car registration details on the way in. The person driving the car had two small children with her, was distracted and forgot to enter her details.

After receiving the ticket I read online about what to do and understood it was best not to engage and to ignore the letters, which I did.

I now have a claim against me for £268.77. 'Amount claimed' £193.77, Court fee £25, legal representative costs £50 = £268.77.

I still don't want to pay it. There are plenty of signs telling people to enter their details so I don't think that there's a signage issue. The frustrating thing is that driver IS a member, it was a genuine mistake and the amount claimed is completely disproportionate.

I can't remember what the original fine was, stupidly got rid of the correspondence.

These are my questions:

Firstly, do I have any kind of defence or should I not bother?

Secondly, I understand that if I defend the claim I lose, but that no CCJ if paid within a month. My concern is that I stand to lose more than £268 if I contest if and fail - is there a chance of this?

Finally, if CEL do decide to go to court, do I have to be there in person?

Thank you so much to anybody who takes the time to help!

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[ostell]

Has the driver complained to th Botanical gardens and ask them to cancel?

Ignoring has not been advised since 2012.

Post up the suitably redacted copy of the original PCN

They are pushing their luck on the basis that you have never responded and therefore the claim will get a default judgement

Acknowledge the claim online using the details and password on the form, noting in the defence, nothing. This gives you 33 days from date of issue to get your defence to the court

SAR TO CEL to get some info and require details of what they will be using in court within 7 days

And remove your other post. Why post twice within an hour. Responses are not instant

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 21:27

[lookingforhelp:-...]

Thank you for responding.

Yes, completely misjudged the no response thing.

I don't have the original PCN unfortunately, I threw it away.

So I should get in touch directly with CEL and ask for their evidence?

Any thoughts on my chance of success? I am wary of ending up with a decision against me and more money to pay in the end.

Apologies for posting twice, I thought the other post had gone to a different forum, will delete.

[Dave65]

As stated send the sar and you want all information they are relying on also any photos etc, so you can form your defence.

[nosferatu1001]

You have an obvious defence in no keeper liability. You have two further defences of abuse of process. POFA strictly limits the Keepers liability, and CEL are claiming more than this; this is an abuse of process. Secondly they are claiming amounts they know they are not entitled to under the CPRs - as they were never incurrred - meaning there is an abuse of process.

BUt firth things first. You havea VERY limited time to get yoru defence in

What is your ISSUE DATE?
Have you gone ONLINE to *acknowledge* and *ONLY* acknowledge your defence? Yes or no.

[lookingforhelp:-...]

Thank you for helping!

My issue date is 17th July 2019.

I haven't acknowledged the defence yet - I just wanted to make sure that I had a chance before I did it as I am worried about potentially having to pay even more if it goes to court.

[nosferatu1001]

DO it. Weve told you to do so. Ack. doesnt cost you anythign at all but gives you 14 extra VITAL days to sort your defence.

Dont delay.

[lookingforhelp:-...]

Ok, I have been online and acknowledged the claim. Will now ask CEL for their evidence - I can't see an email address for them - does anybody have it? The phone number I have given is a payment number.


Also can anyone help with two of the queries I raised at the beginning of the thread?...


Secondly, I understand that if I defend the claim I lose, but that no CCJ if paid within a month. My concern is that I stand to lose more than £268 if I contest if and fail - is there a chance of this?

Finally, if CEL do decide to go to court, do I have to be there in person?

[nosferatu1001]

No, you are writing to them and making a Subject Access Request. USE THOSE WORDS. Look it up if you are unsure, but youa re not "asking for evidence" - there is an important difference.

How many CEL threads have you read? That tells you how often they go to court. Hint, its not a large number.
How many other court threads have you read? THat tells you the preceise process.

WE're not here to do the easy stuff for you. You have to go and read.

[ostell]

As the registered keeper you can only be liable for the amount on the original PCN, £100, plus claim issue fee, £25, If they hand over to a solicitor then max £50 for the solicitor, otherwise £0

It is recommended to attend the court, which will be of your choice, selected later in the process

A little bit of googling would have found you CELs address, it will also be on the claim form https://www.ce-service.co.uk/contact-us.html

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 14:54

[nosferatu1001]

Hearing fee of £25 as well.

Anything else,more than a little bit of interest calcualted from AT MINIMIMUM *28 days after the PCN* (as no "debt" could have been due before this point) is allowed.

[ostell]

Hearing fee of £25 as well.

Anything else,more than a little bit of interest calcualted from AT MINIMIMUM *28 days after the PCN* (as no "debt" could have been due before this point) is allowed.

And then only on the original amount owed.

Any reason you aren't prepared to attend court?

Has the driver asked the landholders to cancel

In small claims costs are very limited so there should not be any increase and probably less than you expect



This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 15:04

[lookingforhelp:-...]

Thanks, all, especially for the info on fees.

Only queried re attending court because it's a scary thought - I will do it though.

Yes, driver asked landowner to cancel - they refused to as apparently part of their contract with CEL is that they won't step in and ask for PCNs to be cancelled.

I had come across the postal address but had looked and couldn't find an email. Wondered whether it was normal to post a letter rather than email but seems it's post only.

I will post the SAR request today and update when I hear back.

Thanks so much all for your help!

[nosferatu1001]

It really isn't scary. No big wigs and gavels. More like an office.

No, do the sar AND WHILE AWAITING the response you read other cel threads and formulate. Adefence. The process does not stop , you are on a time limit and you cannot miss it.

[lookingforhelp:-...]

Thanks for that!

I will post the SAR in the morning when it can go recorded delivery.

I have been looking at the threads re formulating a defence and seeing as I haven't kept any of the letters from CEL it seems I am going to struggle to put together a defence until I get the data from them.

It seems they have 30 days from receipt of my letter to send the data but I believe my defence is due 19th August (28 days from date of issue (22 July)).

Can you clarify how having the data will help me? I may be missing something

[Redivi]

Don't send it as an SAR

Send it as a request for all the documents that they intend to rely on in accordance with the Over-riding Objective

Don't use Recorded Post - CEL can refuse it
Just ask the Post Office for a free certificate of sending

I have been looking at the threads re formulating a defence and seeing as I haven't kept any of the letters from CEL it seems I am going to struggle to put together a defence until I get the data from them.

Not at all
The CEL letter chain is so familiar and the defence so generic that you don't need them
The standard CEL defence concentrates on their contract with the land-owner (they won't have one) and the fake charges
Anything the driver did is no more than a couple of sentences
This doesn't mean that you can't pepper the defence with phrases like "the defendant has asked the claimant … but the request has been ignored"

The aim is that CEL will cancel the claim rather than explain its business practices to a judge

[ostell]

You send first class with a free certificate of posting from any post office

Court is not as you see on TV, 3 desks in a room, with the judge having the higher and bigger desk

[lookingforhelp:-...]

Hi Redvi - thank you, I will just send a request for docs then. Do I only need to say 'in accordance with the overriding objective' with ref to the PCN number? Hopefully they will get returned quicker than with the SAR.

Botanical Gardens have said that they do have a contract with CEL, unfortunately (this makes me so disappointed with BG). Bearing that in mind, do you have any suggestions for formulating my defence?

'The aim is that CEL will cancel the claim rather than explain its business practices to a judge'. This makes sense, thank you.

[nosferatu1001]

Yes, you MUST say that. OTherwise they can ignore. THis makes it clear - you should look up what the overriding objective is so you can understand.

Yes, you go find te DOZENS of CEL 2018/2019 threads here and see the defences they use.

[Redivi]

Unlikely that the Botanical Gardens has a contract with CEL
Much more likely that it has a contract with Creative Car Parks, a parent company

CEL defences always mention the inadequate signs in breach of the British Parking Association Code of Practice
They must be conspicuous, especially at the car park entrance and the £100 charge must be clearly displayed

CEL doesn't have any signs at the entrance to the botanical gardens unless they're low down on the passenger side
Any mention of the £100 charge will be in small print near the bottom of the sign

Also refer to the lack of instructions to register the vehicle

CEL claims and Letters Before Action don't usually say what the driver did wrong
Can you remember whether the original PCN said that the driver failed to pay ?
If so, make clear in the defence that the driver was a member and had no obligation to pay

With the addition of:

Particulars of claim fail to disclose a cause of action
Statement of Truth not signed (Has to be signed by a company officer or a solicitor, not a team)
Fake debt collection charge
Fake solicitor charge
Fake solicitor fee

You can see how easy it is to write a defence without waiting for CEL to send any documents