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PCN and Car Pound, Car given a PCN and then towed away
Ambient111
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:23
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Hi there! Any help would be much appreciated, however I only have until 18th November to appeal to the adjudicator!

On Sunday 01/09/2019, at approximately 8pm I parked as normal outside my residence and there was no suspended parking notice present. I would not have left the car there if there had been a parking suspension notice present. I left the car there all week because I get the train to work. I noticed on Friday 06/09/2019 that my car was no longer where I had parked it because of some road works. My car had been towed and I had to pay a total of £305 to get it out of the pound that evening (please see attachment_1 showing the breakdown and attached PCN). Unfortunately I did not know about this forum so I appealed with my email below:

[i]Re: PCN No: TT27893428 (combined total £305)

I wish to appeal and make representations against all of the penalty charges served upon me on the 6th September 2019 on the following grounds which are covered in further detail in this letter.

E) The place where the vehicle was at rest was not in a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions.

I arrived in my vehicle at the place of rest on Sunday 1st September 2019 at approximately 8pm. There were no suspended parking signs present that explained this parking space would become a suspended bay. The sign that can be seen on the attached picture was not present at the time of me bringing the vehicle to rest at this place. There was no reason for me to not park there and leave my car at rest.

G) There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the council (in accordance with the Traffic Management Act 2004, the General Regulations or the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007.

In addition to the Secretary of State’s statutory guidance the DfT published further guidance for the benefit of Local Authorities. This publication is known as the “Operational Guidance to Local Authorities” and this gives further clarification in regard to traffic signs.

8.35 Authorities should not issue PCNs when traffic signs or road markings are incorrect, missing or not in accordance with the TRO. These circumstances may make the Order unenforceable. If a representation against a PCN shows that a traffic sign or road marking was defective, the authority should accept the representation because the adjudicator is likely to uphold any appeal. An enforcement authority may be acting unlawfully and may damage its reputation if it continues to issue PCNs that it knows to be unenforceable.

For the reasons explained above I require the council to acknowledge their error and therefore cancel this penalty charge forthwith.
[/i]


The appeal has been rejected and they have provided a picture of my car in the space with what they claim to be a parking suspension notice (please see attachment_2). The picture is not dated and this does not prove that there was a suspended parking notice present when I parked there.

Please can anyone be of assistance with what I should do next?

Many thanks in advance!

This post has been edited by Ambient111: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:27
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Attachment_1.pdf ( 1.34MB ) Number of downloads: 116
Attached File  Attachment_2.pdf ( 542.75K ) Number of downloads: 99
 
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post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:23
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cp8759
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:11
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From what you've told us you have strong grounds of appeal, but what you've drafted is (sorry to be very blunt) misconceived and wholly inadequate. Do not submit your appeal until we've helped you re-write it. My initial thoughts are that the council's only picture of the signage is wholly inadequate:



However, it's better not to give the council a chance to deal with this, but more on tactical options later. Has the council at any point provided better quality photos?


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Neil B
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:27
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You have until 20th.

I don't think a day storage charge was due.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 10:02
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+1

https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/23082

Storage charges should apply for each day or part of a day, reckoned from 24:00 (midnight) on the day following the removal of a vehicle.(s150)


I don't necessarily think the fuzzy embedded photo indicates anything other than poor reproduction processes. Ultimately they would need to produce evidence of a valid sign and I wouldn't bank against this.

They say you were not parked when it was erected, you imply you must have been;
You say that you parked outside my residence on 1 Sept, the photo show a considerable amount of road works paraphernalia, and yet despite this you claim that you did not see any of this prior to the vehicle being removed on 5th, 4 days later.

A tough one to persuade an adj on!

In any event, the issue of 'charges paid to secure release..' should win.

On this point, IMO you should put this to the authority now i.e. thank them for their response and ask for clarification on the issue of the charge for storage which you understand should not have been levied i.e. a storage charge could not be applied until 'midnight on the day following the date of removal', in this case no charge was owing until 0001 7 September whereas the vehicle was recovered at 22.55 6 Sept.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 10:15
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OP----- you must ask the Council if their suspension log showed your vehicle (VRM???) when the signage was erected.

If your vehicle was in situ when the sign went up you were legally parked.

Second, we need a close up of the sign. I suspect this is a rolling programme of work for which they need a TTRO.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 10:46
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@MMV, the first question is answered in their NOR.

'Our records show the sign was erected on 29/8..' - OP parked on 1 Sept.
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Ambient111
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 15:31
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Hi all, many thanks for the quick responses! So it seems my best chance is to question the addition of the day storage? Will this potentially get me off the whole £305 fine or just the addition of the day storage? How would I put that into writing?

I don't recall if there were any roadworks paraphernalia when I parked, but I would never have parked there if there was a sign on that lamppost. Do they have to prove it was there when I parked? As in Sunday evening?

@cp8759 don't worry about being blunt, I wish I knew about this forum before I submitted my initial appeal.

Thanks!
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cp8759
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 22:47
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QUOTE (Ambient111 @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 15:31) *
Hi all, many thanks for the quick responses! So it seems my best chance is to question the addition of the day storage? Will this potentially get me off the whole £305 fine or just the addition of the day storage? How would I put that into writing?

You should challenge everything, not just the extra storage.

Firstly, how certain are you that there was no signage when you parked? i.e. do you think there were no signs, or are you absolutely certain?

The council asserts the sign was put up on 29 August but we have not seen these recorded, it might just be that the sign was printed on 29 August but not put up for another couple of days, we've seen that sort of thing happen before. The council policy says:

5) The signs and lines were changed while the vehicle was parked
If there were changes to lines or signs when the vehicle was issued with a PCN,
it may be cancelled depending on circumstances, such as whether the vehicle
had been parked legally before the changes were made.


The NoR also says the author is unable to cancel the PCN, which is an unlawful fettering of discretion.

We've got a week and a bit before you must register the appeal so let's try and get all the facts first.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 22:47


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hcandersen
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 00:10
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No it doesn't.

It is quite clear that having considered the reps and for the reasons set out in the letter the council cannot cancel the penalty..because the owner has not made out any grounds for doing so, whether statutory or otherwise.

Absolutely fine.

You have more than enough to go with without diluting your appeal in this way.

But cp and I won't see eye to eye on this, so you have to take a view.
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Ambient111
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 13:13
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@cp8759 I am 100% there was no parking parking suspension sign there when I parked, and I did not return to check on the car until the following Friday night, at which point it had been towed away. I would never have parked there if there was a sign present on that lamppost. What is the law if the sign was put up by the council but removed or moved for some reason, meaning I thought I could park there?

@hcandersen when you say You have more than enough to go with without diluting your appeal in this way., what do you believe to be my best argument?

Thanks again!
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 20:44
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 00:10) *
It is quite clear that having considered the reps and for the reasons set out in the letter the council cannot cancel the penalty..because the owner has not made out any grounds for doing so, whether statutory or otherwise.

The council can always cancel for any reason. The council can cancel the penalty even if the owner has not made out any grounds at all. This has been confirmed both by the High Court and the Court of Appeal, see Westminster, R (on the application of) v Parking Adjudicator [2002] EWHC 1007 (Admin) and Walmsley v Transport for London & Ors [2005] EWCA Civ 1540. But by all means, feel free to write to the Lord Chief Justice and lay down the law for him.


Ambient111, these are the relevant cases you want to read:

Alan Francis v London Borough of Tower Hamlets (2160242963, 11 July 2016) http://bit.ly/2VU7QNf
Umair Ali Zaman v London Borough of Newham (2170385810, 09 September 2017) http://bit.ly/2KSDtpI
Peter Brosnan v London Borough of Brent (2180194309, 18 June 2018) http://bit.ly/2P9Q3PP

Bottom line is if the sign was not there when you parked, you were entitled to park. If the sign was put up before you parked but went missing, the suspension log should state that the sign was re-installed. I also think it would be worthwhile simply registering the appeal without submitting anything and seeing what the council puts forwards by way of evidence. If the photos are not readable, your win will be guaranteed because the adjudicator cannot find that you parked in breach of the suspension if he can't see what the suspension sign says.


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Ambient111
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:05
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cp8759 many thanks for the informative response! Those cases sounded very similar to mine! This is what I have drafted so far:

To whom it may concern,

I had been a resident of Hackney Wick for many months, and noticed the regular suspended parking notices that were often located around the surrounding roads. I was always very careful to check that there was no sign present each time I parked before going into my flat. On Sunday 1st September, as normal I parked my car in a surrounding road and was careful to check there were no suspended parking notices assigned to where I had parked. I get the train to work all week, so did not return to the location of my vehicle until Friday 6th spetember, by which point it had been removed. The fact that the parking suspension notice was not present at the time I parked should be clearly stated on the parking suspension log and should prove that the sign was not present when I parked. The picture provided does not show a sign was present when I parked. It is for this reason that the total penalty should be cancelled and a refund provided for the total amount. I also would like to bring your attention to similar cases of the penalty being cancelled:

Alan Francis v London Borough of Tower Hamlets (2160242963, 11 July 2016) http://bit.ly/2VU7QNf
Umair Ali Zaman v London Borough of Newham (2170385810, 09 September 2017) http://bit.ly/2KSDtpI
Peter Brosnan v London Borough of Brent (2180194309, 18 June 2018) http://bit.ly/2P9Q3PP

Furthermore, I would also like clarification on the issue of the charge for storage which I understand should not have been levied anyway i.e. a storage charge could not be applied until 'midnight on the day following the date of removal', in this case no charge was owing until 0001 7 September whereas the vehicle was recovered at 22.55 6 Sept.

Kind regards,
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hcandersen
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:39
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I parked as normal outside my residence

On Sunday 1st September, as normal I parked my car in a surrounding road


????
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Ambient111
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 00:39
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Thanks @hcandersen!

To whom it may concern,

I had been a resident of Hackney Wick for many months, and noticed the regular suspended parking notices that were often located around the surrounding roads. I was always very careful to check that there was no sign present each time I parked before going into my flat. On Sunday 1st September, as normal I parked my car outside my residence and was careful to check there were no suspended parking notices assigned to where I had parked. There was definitely no parking suspension sign assigned to where I had parked, so I locked the car and made my way into my flat as normal. I get the train to work all week, so did not return to the location of my vehicle until Friday 6th spetember, by which point it had been removed without any warning. The fact that the parking suspension notice was not present at the time I parked should be clearly stated on the parking suspension log and should prove that the sign was not present when I parked. The picture provided does not show a parking suspension sign was present at the time of which I parked. It is for this reason that the total penalty should be cancelled and a refund provided for the total amount. I also would like to bring your attention to similar cases of the penalty being cancelled:

Alan Francis v London Borough of Tower Hamlets (2160242963, 11 July 2016) http://bit.ly/2VU7QNf
Umair Ali Zaman v London Borough of Newham (2170385810, 09 September 2017) http://bit.ly/2KSDtpI
Peter Brosnan v London Borough of Brent (2180194309, 18 June 2018) http://bit.ly/2P9Q3PP

Furthermore, I would also like clarification on the issue of the charge for storage which I understand should not have been levied anyway i.e. a storage charge could not be applied until 'midnight on the day following the date of removal', in this case no charge was owing until 00:01 7th September whereas the vehicle was recovered at 22:55 6th Sept.

Kind regards,
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 01:08
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I would recommend you simply register the appeal on the tribunal website and write "full submissions to follow" in the further information box, I'll write the appeal for you if the council chooses to contest.


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 08:20
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Do we have any cases where the incorrect addition of the storage charge has been classed as a procedural impropriety? Easier o/s London given the Charges Order but the Appeals Regs state:-

"In these Regulations “procedural impropriety” means a failure by the enforcement authority to observe any requirement imposed on it by the 2004 Act, by the General Regulations or by these Regulations in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum".

Just a thought.


Mick
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Ambient111
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 09:53
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@cp8759 is the result of the next appeal not the final decision as stated in the NoR? Do I not need to add further evidence for the adjudicator to review (storage day/evidence of cases similar to mine)? Could also add the point Mad Mick V made?

Thanks!
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hcandersen
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 10:06
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It is not a PI, it is totally separate grounds of appeal:



that the penalty charge or other charge paid to secure the release of the vehicle exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case;


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 10:25
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@hca

Where's your quote from?

Mick
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hcandersen
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 10:35
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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3482/part/4/made

Specifically regulation 11(5)(f).

Part 4 applies to 'Right to make representations about a removed vehicle'

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