PCN Code 21u - Parking in a suspended bay - CAMDEN Options

[EVdriver]

Hi all, totally new here and posting my first message. If any mistakes please accept my apologies.

I would like to ask you for your assitance. On Sunday September 22 2019 at around 4 pm I parked my car allegedly in a suspend a pay and display bay to collect my daughter from her friend's flat for approximately 15 to 20 minutes. At the time I parked my car the yellow triangler board was showing absolutely no date/s or time about the parking bay that has been suspended or going to be suspended towards the road, also the fact that the bay was full of other parked cars, to me was indicative enough that either the suspension has been lifted or yet to be applied on the bay
However, Camden has uploaded some pics showing full details of the suspension.

Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

This post has been edited by EVdriver: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 23:36

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[EVdriver]

ah, i must be missing something, i thought hcandersen only asked for a simple timeline.....no?

Here you go.

https://ibb.co/SySfZLX
https://ibb.co/vjJ9YNx


https://ibb.co/KwxHcsy
https://ibb.co/2qqWcMX

[cp8759]

Well as things stand you might as well wait for the NtO, there's no point in paying now.

[hcandersen]

Thanks.

So, you received their first response which extended the discount.

According to their second response you wrote to them again 'I understand you wish to contest the PCN further..'.

Why? What did you write?

This is not a ping-pong correspondence process with on the one hand the authority being time barred from pursuing the matter after 6 months and on the other people continuing to prolong the process ad infinitum without submitting fresh arguments/evidence.

Anyway, you wrote again, they declined and the extended discount period had lapsed.

Unless you have hard evidence of them agreeing to hold the discount pending a response to your second letter - which we'll see - then as per cp you can do no more than wait for the NTO.

[EVdriver]

Well, since my 2nd letter sent on 20th October (within the discount period) explaining the inciden with some additional info relevant for my appeal, I have been regularly calling Camden for an update within my discount period but unfortunately I have been repetitively advised on the phone that my appeal was put on hold again so until I get a response from Parking Operations the charge will remain at £65, however I will get 14 days to decide how I wish to proceed with my pcn after a response.

My last call was on 7th November speaking to a customer service officer who had advised the same that the charge is still £65 which will not go up until I get a response and I’ll have further 14 days to pay the charge.

On 8th November 2019 I have received a response from Parking Operations which states that the charge now stands at £130.00.

[hcandersen]

The responses to which you refer are standard for a 'Customer Services Officer' responding to someone who conveys the impression that they have challenged a PCN but were waiting for a response. In addition, why would you want to continue 'regularly phoning' the council? For what purpose? You don't get answers over the phone and as you did this regularly, starting presumably only a few days after sending your second, extra-procedural, correspondence you hadn't even given them any time to consider what you wrote.

Anyway, you are where you are. The discount for the moment has gone. Wait for the NTO.

You are the registered keeper with up-to-date DVLA details?

[EVdriver]

Guys, i have now received the NTO dated 12/11/19 but received on 18/11/19.

https://ibb.co/ZYJD6yk

I wish I had paid it off before the discount expired

Thank you all for your time and kind support.

[cp8759]

You're taking a very relaxed approach to this, the NtO is dated 12 November and many councils re-offer the discount if the NtO is challenged within 14 days. I suggest you send a representation by Monday and hope they make a big cock-up in the rejection letter or at least extend the discount.

Write a draft based on your informal reps and include a plea for discretion, don't send it until one of us has confirmed it's good to go.

[EVdriver]

Thanks cp8759, I am totally not relaxed in my mind but was really tied up with some family commitment until now unfortunately. You'll see that i am quite terrible in writing letters, but this is pretty much what I had said in my informal reps.

To whom it may concern,

I am writing in relation to my recent Notice to Owner dated 12/11/2014 for PCN number Xx.

Firstly, I would like to apologize if I came across to you that I was further contesting my pcn in my informal representation dated 20th October 2019.

Please kindly understand that I never disputed with the remote CEO photographs although I may have alluded to the tact that the CEO’s photographs are used merely as supplementary information and are recorded as good practice but more importantly to make it little more clearer on what I was trying to say in my letter is that the remote CEO’s photographs may have been taken after they had restored the tampered/torn-away suspension notice. Also in support of what I was saying, I believe had provided with some further information (photographs taken immediately after receiving my pnc On Sunday September 22 2019 at around 4.25 pm) clearly showing parked vehicles allegedly in the same suspended side of the road (please see the links below) but unfortunately only my bay were targeted by the remote CEO. So, in a nutshell the purpose of my letter dated 20th October 2019 was to explain further about what may have happened in this incident to best of my knowledge and belief.

https://ibb.co/NrYJdR9
https://ibb.co/Q695L8L
https://ibb.co/VHWttjB

However, I am quite sure you would be able see from your system that since my above letter sent on 20th October (within the discount period) providing additional info which would be relevant for my appeal, I have been regularly calling Camden for an update before my discount period expires but unfortunately each time I have been advised that I don’t need to worry as my appeal was put on hold again so until I get a response from Parking Operations the charge will remain at £65, however I will get 14 days to decide how I wish to proceed with my pcn after a response.

Furthermore, you will see that my last call was on 7th November speaking to a customer service officer who had advised the same that the charge is still £65 which will not go up until I get a response and I’ll have further 14 days to pay the charge.
On 8th November 2019 I have received a response from Parking Operations which states that the charge now stands at £130.00.
Given this circumstances whereby the suspension notice may have been tampered/torn-away (possibly, later restored by CEO) and also seeing many other parked vehicles in the same suspended side of the road (please see the links above) as well as being conscious that the Camden council's noise and environmental protocols contend that Camden prohibit "Works" on a Sunday so even if HS2 wanted to park a vehicles where parking is suspended or wants to drop a load of materials on a Sunday this was even more confusing.

I would be ever so grateful if you would kindly consider this objectively and kindly either cancel the pnc or reinstate the discount period

This post has been edited by EVdriver: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 22:13

[cp8759]

The remote CEO? I don't know what this means, if the CEO was there he was not remote?

Saying other cars didn't get a PCN won't help you a bit, so take that out. Do not include any links, nobody will click on them. Have another go.

[EVdriver]

This is my best go, please let me know asap if i need to change anything....


To whom it may concern,

I am writing in relation to my recent Notice to Owner dated 12/11/2014 for PCN number Xx.

Firstly, I would like to apologize if I came across to you that I was further contesting my PCN in my informal representation dated 20th October 2019.

Please kindly understand that I never disputed with the CEO photographs although I may have alluded to the tact that the CEO’s photographs are normally used merely as supplementary information and are recorded as good practice but more importantly I was trying to draw the attention to some relevant event of my appeal and were reiterate the fact that the CEO’s photographs may have been taken after they had restored the tampered/torn-away suspension notice. In support of what I was saying, I believe had also provided with some further information (photographs taken immediately after receiving my pnc On Sunday September 22 2019 at around 4.25 pm) clearly showing parked vehicles allegedly in the same suspended side of the road but unfortunately only my bay were targeted by the CEO. So, in a nutshell the purpose of my letter dated 20th October 2019 was to explain further about what may have happened in this incident to best of my knowledge and belief.

However, I am quite sure you would be able see from your system that since my above second, extra-procedural, correspondence sent on 20th October (within the discount period) providing additional info which would be relevant for my appeal, I have been regularly calling Camden for an update before my discount period expires but unfortunately each time I have been advised that I don’t need to worry as my appeal was put on hold again so until I get a response from Parking Operations the charge will remain at £65, however I will get 14 days to decide how I wish to proceed with my pcn after a response from Parking Operations.

Furthermore, you will see that my last call to Camden was on 7th November speaking to a customer service officer who had advised the same that the charge is still £65 which will not go up until I get an email response and I’ll have further 14 days to pay the charge.
On 8th November 2019 I have received a response from Parking Operations which states that the charge now stands at £130.00.
Given these circumstances whereby the suspension notice may have been tampered/torn-away (possibly, later restored by CEO) and also seeing many other parked vehicles in the same suspended side of the road (I had provide photographs shown this previously) as well as being conscious that the Camden council's noise and environmental protocols contend that Camden prohibit "Works" on a Sunday so even if HS2 wanted to park a vehicles where parking is suspended or wants to drop a load of materials on a Sunday this was even more confusing.

I would be ever so grateful if you would kindly consider this objectively and kindly either cancel the pnc or reinstate the discount period

[cp8759]

The substance of your draft is ok but you might want to fix the grammar, and change "tact" to "fact" in the first line.

[EVdriver]

lol, thanks for your time cp8759.

[EVdriver]

Penalty Charge Notice : X
Location : Stanhope Street
Date : 22/09/2019 at 16:16 Camden
Vehicle Camden Parking Operations
camden.gov.uk/contactparking




28 November 2019


Dear Mr X

NOTICE OF REJECTION OF REPRESENTATIONS AGAINST NOTICE TO OWNER
Issued under the Authority of the Traffic Management Act 2004
Verification code: 72K91A
Contravention code: 21u

Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space - mobile phone parking Thank you for your representations received on 26/11/2019. I have taken into account the contents of your correspondence, but have decided to formally reject your representations against the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed your vehicle parked in Stanhope Street on 22/09/2019 at 16:16 in a bay suspended for HS2 works. I understand that you are challenging this PCN as you believed the suspension signage was missing when you parked your vehicle.

I have referred to the CEO's notes that record your vehicle was parked beneath a time plate pole that had the suspension details stated on a large yellow sign. This whole paid for parking bay (location number 13562) was suspended from Thursday 19 Sep 2019 to Tuesday 24 Sep 2019, 24 hours a day. Bays are suspended from time to time and it is important to keep the area clear to allow the activity it is suspended for to take place. Any vehicles parked within suspended bays may cause an obstruction which can result in further suspensions.

I understand that you believe the signage was missing when you parked your vehicle, however the CEO has recorded that the suspension signage was correctly displayed and visible to drivers. I can confirm that there is no record of the signage in this location being replaced and I am therefore satisfied that the signage remained present and compliant for the duration of the suspension. The advance warning signage for this suspension was in place on 18 Sep 2019 at 04:41 am which provided sufficient notification of the suspension. The signage was not removed or altered until 25 Sept 2019, after the end of the suspension.
I understand also that you saw no works occurring at the time your vehicle was parked. While it may appear that work is not taking place or has been completed, contractors may still require bays intermittently or to complete additional follow up work. We do ask contractors to notify us when a suspension is no longer needed, but we are not able to constantly monitor the usage of each suspension.

Having reviewed the contents of your case, I am satisfied that the suspension signage was clear and present to inform drivers of the restrictions and therefore I am formally rejecting your representations.

As explained, the enforcement action was valid. However, we will accept the discount payment of £65.00 if received within 14 days of the date of this letter. After this period the charge will revert to £130.00 and this amount will apply to any further correspondence or you can submit an appeal to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators.

You can pay this charge online at camden.gov.uk/pay or you can contact our 24 hour automated payment line on 020 7974 6104.
You can make your appeal on-line at the following address londontribunals.gov.uk. Please ensure that you quote the unique appeal verification code stated on this Notice of Rejection and follow the on-line instructions on how to complete your appeal.

Alternatively, you can complete the Appeal Form enclosed with this letter (please read the guidance notes before completing the form) and send your appeal to London Tribunals, PO BOX 10598, Nottingham, NG6 6DR.

Please do not send your appeal to us. If you wish to make any enquiries about your appeal, please visit the London Tribunals website at londontribunals.gov.uk.
If you choose to appeal an independent Adjudicator will consider your appeal based on the evidence provided by both sides before making a final decision. A full copy of our evidence pack will be sent to you before your appeal is heard. You should be aware that the Adjudicator can award costs in favor of either party if it is deemed that a party has acted in a vexatious, frivolous or wholly unreasonable manner.

It is important that you either pay the penalty or submit an appeal before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this Notice of Rejection is served. Failure to do so may result in a Charge Certificate being served, at which stage the full Penalty Charge will be increased by 50% to £195.00. Any appeal submitted after the expiry of the 28-day period may be considered at the Adjudicator's discretion if there is good reason for the delay. If the increased charge is not paid within a further 14 days we may apply to the County Court to recover the charge as if it were a debt payable under a County Court order, and this may result in enforcement agents being instructed.

Yours sincerely

[EVdriver]

Guys, i guess it would be sensible to pay the fine whilst they are accepting the discount payment of £65.00.

Thanks.

[cp8759]

Show us the actual letter rather than a transcript.

[EVdriver]

cp8759 hi, I spent some time yesterday trying to upload the scanned letter but I could not (size is too large), I can ensure you that full content of the letter has been cut and pasted in my post.

Thanks.

[cp8759]

cp8759 hi, I spent some time yesterday trying to upload the scanned letter but I could not (size is too large), I can ensure you that full content of the letter has been cut and pasted in my post.

Thanks.

Upload it to an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com

[EVdriver]

There you go cp8759.

https://ibb.co/Hnb4z20

https://ibb.co/3yWw9d4

Thanks.

[hcandersen]

Guys, i guess it would be sensible to pay the fine whilst they are accepting the discount payment of £65.00.

I agree.

They have photos showing the sign in situ which you acknowledged was the case when you returned to your car (you did this by taking photos of goodness knows what other bays immediately after you returned, but not yours), whereas all you have is your unsubstantiated claim that:

the yellow triangler board was showing absolutely no date/s or time about the parking bay that has been suspended or going to be suspended towards the road,

And then you wrote:

CEO’s photographs may have been taken after they had restored the tampered/torn-away suspension notice

Which would simply prompt an adjudicator to ask..and exactly what did you see when you looked for the traffic sign (as you are required to do) at the time of parking? A tampered/torn-away sign, but how would you know unless you saw the face of the sign where, as a motorist, you would know that the details would be placed? Or did you simply look at the wing(s) of the sign and think..it's a barren, featureless desert out there because there's no substantive info. In which case, why would you think 'torn away or tampered'? Or did you not see any sign of a sign? The more you try to explain, the more you make life difficult for yourself.

I do not think you have a leg to stand on, so I recommend you pay the discount and move on.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 16:37

[cp8759]

I rarely say this but I also think you don't have a leg to stand on.