PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

10 minute grace period, mixed use bay, Tribunal win!, mixed use pay and display, no loading
Joshmow
post Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 17:53
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19
Joined: 23 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,872



Received a pcn at 15.03 for on street parking in Hampstead.
I was parked legally in the bay with Blue Badge in pay and display. The pay and display parking runs from 9am-3pm. Then it is no loading no 3-8. I’ll post pcn and pics. The council website pictures only show part of the sign.

Does the below apply?



TMA 2004: The Secretary of State’s Statutory Guidance to the Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions 2015. Section 8.11 states:
The law requires that a penalty charge must not be issued to a vehicle which has stayed parked in a parking place on a road or in a local authority's car park beyond the permitted parking period for a period of time not exceeding 10 minutes. The grace period applies to on-street and off-street parking places provided under traffic orders, whether the period of parking is paid for or free. Any penalty charge during the 10-minute grace period would be illegal, unless the vehicle itself is parked unlawfully.


Thanks

This post has been edited by Joshmow: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:08
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 39)
Advertisement
post Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 17:53
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 09:51
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 07:55) *
@PMB:
Your quoted decision refers to the following facts:

The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in the bay for 12 minutes.

The PCN alleged that the vehicle was parked in a restricted street. It was not. it was parked in a parking bay that limited the amount of parking time to 10 minutes. The PCN is therefore invalid.


I don't know how this relates to the OP's circumstances.

The regs seem pretty clear, the debates we've seen relate to when 'designation' ceases.

where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.
(3) No penalty charge is payable


So in order to rely on the 10-minute rule it is necessary to examine whether at the time of the contravention the vehicle was 'stationary in a designated parking place'.

IMO, it was not and this would be an adj's starting point given the mutually exclusive restrictions. The OP might be lucky and the traffic order could be flawed, but is it worthwhile risking the discount on this point?


It is rare that any of us have cases on file that are identical to a case. but often there are findings that apply

I look at this sentence

The general idea of this is that if a vehicle is parked legally in a designated parking bay when it is initially parked, then a 10 minute grace period should be given before a parking ticket is issued after it becomes illegally parked.

And IMO it is correct, when a bay ceases to be a bay or if an unrestricted parking period becomes restricted a car legally parked at the time of that designation must be allowed the grace period


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 09:52
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,064
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



....provided that at the time of the contravention the vehicle was 'stationary in a designated parking place', it says so on the tin!

Not had been, but was.

But there's no consensus here, so the OP is left to make the argument up to and including adj and see what the adjudicator believes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 10:20
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 10:52) *
....provided that at the time of the contravention the vehicle was 'stationary in a designated parking place', it says so on the tin!

Not had been, but was.


But there's no consensus here, so the OP is left to make the argument up to and including adj and see what the adjudicator believes.


We are becoming the supreme court here What is the time of the contravention. 14,59 0r 15.00. The car was parked legally at one but not the other.. The contravention might well occur at 15.00 but no PCN may be served for 10 minutes after the time that legal parking ends even if that be 10 minutes from 14.59.59 when the car was parked legally


I would suggest that there is no consensus amongst adjudicators either, ATM I cannot make an argument because I have not seen the bay the markings nor the sign though if everything is as the OP says and it was my PCN I would make it


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DJ Lexy
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 12:16
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 594
Joined: 7 Sep 2016
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 86,985



This '10 minute grace period' always starts these kind of fights in this forum biggrin.gif

The issue is the vague wording of one of the clauses, notably:

QUOTE
where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period


Some people think you're entitled to a 10 minute grace period, since you were legally parked in a parking place until 3:00.

Some people think that, at 3:00, the parking bay ceases to exist, therefore the vehicle is no longer stationary in a designated parking place, and the grace period does not apply.

Councils tend to favour the second interpretation. Adjudicators have been known to go either way.

Even if the second interpretation is correct, it's still a bit mean to issue a PCN to a blue badge vehicle after 3 minutes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 12:31
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



But if the second definition is correct then I car parked in a shared use bay the becomes a permit bay is no longer parked legally so the GP does not apply A car parked legally in a bay before a suspension starts would not have the benefit of the GP but we argue it does

The intent of parliament is that a car parked legally be allowed a GP before a PCN may be served, to say its not a bay anymore so you did not park legally frustrates that intent


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DJ Lexy
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 12:53
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 594
Joined: 7 Sep 2016
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 86,985



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 13:31) *
The intent of parliament is that a car parked legally be allowed a GP before a PCN may be served, to say its not a bay anymore so you did not park legally frustrates that intent

You're quite right. But until somebody with enough money and enough anger issues launches a judicial review, I suspect councils will stick to their hardline approach and adjudicators will fall either way, depending on what side of the bed they got out of.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 13:06
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (DJ Lexy @ Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 13:53) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 13:31) *
The intent of parliament is that a car parked legally be allowed a GP before a PCN may be served, to say its not a bay anymore so you did not park legally frustrates that intent

You're quite right. But until somebody with enough money and enough anger issues launches a judicial review, I suspect councils will stick to their hardline approach and adjudicators will fall either way, depending on what side of the bed they got out of.


A sad but true summery


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 13:08
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



For what it's worth this is what Camden says. CP - Camden has just updated its policy doc:

https://www.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/3...f2-722d5e9f52ca

Deregulation Act 2015 ‘grace period’

The Deregulation Act 2015 requires a ‘grace period’ of 10 minutes be applied to paid for time and free parking bays from 1 April 2015. The grace period only applies where the requirements of the bay have been satisfied first i.e. a parking session has been purchased, the vehicle holds the relevant permit, is carrying out an exempted activity, etc. If these requirements have not been met the vehicle will be subject to normal enforcement.

It’s important to note that the grace period only applies to ‘designated parking places’ and not yellow lines, keep clears, zig-zags, or suspended bays.
A vehicle parked outside controlled hours is considered to have parked at a time when no restrictions are in force and therefore no requirements to satisfy. The 10 minute grace period will apply for the first 10 minutes of the next controlled parking period. For example, if the CPZ hours apply from 8.30am to 6.30pm and the vehicle was parked before 8.30am, the grace period would apply between 8.30am and 8.40am and no PCN should be issued until 8.41am
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 13:22
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



That would fit the OPs situation if it as said but we need the location


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Joshmow
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 16:44
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19
Joined: 23 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,872



Hello

Wow, thanks for all the input. Clearly gotta a picture of the sign. I’m on it, this weekend at the latest. Unfortunately Ive been housebound most of this week with the disability. Carer is on it.

From looking at google street view, this used to be an all day bay until recently. Then has been changed to this mixed. Bay one minute, no loading the next.

There are extenuating as well, which I don’t want to go into here, But clearly there are grounds to challenge.

Ive put up the screen shot of GSV sorry it’s not that clear, but they must have changed the bay and the sign recently. Hampstead High Street. Opposite Goldfish.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 17:09
Post #31


Member


Group: Closed
Posts: 9,710
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



Here's the Order with traffic sign etc. The position is Greenhill not Greenbank however I am sure they have the correct position on Hampstead High Street in the other bumf:-

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...63xXLiNeNWrYokx

OP has to base challenge on discretion--late back because ??? and thought he had 10 minutes grace. Keep it simple . Otherwise we will be staring at our navels for ever!

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 17:13
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5555439,-...3312!8i6656

What we need are the council photos go online and get them or if not there ask camden


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 17:16
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 14:22) *
That would fit the OPs situation if it as said but we need the location


Plus 1.


When semantics creep in, the explanatory note that accompanies legislation often gives more clue to the intent of the law.


In this case:- "These Regulations amend the Civil Enforcement of Parking (England) General Regulations 2007 to introduce a ten minute grace period before a penalty charge is payable and a penalty charge notice can be served in relation to a parking contravention where a vehicle is stationary in an off street or on street permitted parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period. "

To me the requirements are satisfied anyway, with application of the wording of the amendment.

"where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period. ….."
"No penalty charge is payable …."

The vehicle was lawfully parked in a designated parking place right up until the end of the permitted parking period.
So to me the first two legs were satisfied.
10 minutes had not elapsed, that is the third leg.
There is no specific on what type of PCN although it could be argued that it should relate to the end of permitted parking.
And indeed does in this case as at the end, new restrictions kick in.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Joshmow
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 17:37
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19
Joined: 23 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,872



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 18:13) *
Here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5555439,-...3312!8i6656

What we need are the council photos go online and get them or if not there ask camden



They are on my first post. There is a photo of half the sign, which is rather frustrating. Hence I now have to get my carer to shlep over to Hampstead to get a photo.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 18:08
Post #35


Member


Group: Closed
Posts: 9,710
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



The sign is detailed in the Order/Notice I posted, I doubt they would have erected another:-

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...63xXLiNeNWrYokx


Mick




Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 19:10
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Thanks mick, didn't see it earlier. I would suggest a challenge based on the policy that stamf posted, and would not say I thought I had a 10 minute GP that just invites them to say well you didn't


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 20:36
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 14:08) *
For what it's worth this is what Camden says. CP - Camden has just updated its policy doc:

https://www.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/3...f2-722d5e9f52ca

Thanks I've updated the policy list.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DJ Lexy
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 21:08
Post #38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 594
Joined: 7 Sep 2016
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 86,985



There's been a lot of talk about the 10 minute grace period and whether it applies in this case, but I'm not sure it even matters.

Before the 10 minute grace period, councils were expected to use fairness in their enforcement. One would expect that in cases where the 10 minute grace period doesn't apply, councils are still expected to operate fairly. Just because the 10 minute grace period might not apply in this case, doesn't mean the council is right to issue a PCN at exactly 15:00:00.

Councils have a duty to give a little bit of extra consideration to people with disabilities. If your disability involves anything to do with movement, it is absolutely reasonable that it might take you an extra 3 minutes to get back to your car.

I'd focus on that in your appeal, rather than the technicalities of whether the 10 minute grace period applies or not.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr Mustard
post Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 21:30
Post #39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,021
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,932



Technical explanation time.

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions(England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015

2.—(1) The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007(2) are amended as follows.

(2) In regulation 4 (imposition of penalty charges)—

re-number the existing provision as (1);

at the end insert—

“(2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to © of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.


In order for this extra 10 minutes to apply there must have been a permitted parking period, the paid for parking in this case, and thus the motorist gets another 10 minutes during which he cannot be given a PCN, for the permitted parking, despite being in contravention.

In this case the PCN has not been given for being in a permitted parking period after the expiry of the paid for period + 11 minutes (councils cannot ticket at 10 minutes over, the 10 minutes must have been exceeded) but that is not what the PCN is for. It is for a new restriction which only came into force at 3pm. I do not think therefore that most adjudicators will allow for the 10 minute rule as a new restriction started.

The explanatory note from the DCLG, when the regulation was being drawn up, said this:

On the question of extending grace periods to other areas such as yellow lines and loading bays, the majority of individuals (55%) and organisations (75%) disagreed with this proposal. There were concerns that allowing free periods in places where parking is not permitted (such as on double yellow lines), could lead to confusion and encourage more anti-social and potentially dangerous parking. In the light of these responses, the Government decided not to introduce mandatory grace periods in wider circumstances other than a 10 minute mandatory grace period at the end of on-street and off-street paid for-parking and free parking periods.

(I had a very interesting case at the tribunal last week where there was a paid for parking bay within a bus lane and the changeover time from paid for parking to bus lane was 4pm. The council accepted payment until 4.06pm and the motorist managed to lave at that same time. In that case the evidence was not served on the motorist and the tribunal until respectively 1 & 2 days before the in person hearing so I won on that alone. The adjudicator was interested in the dilemma though and we would have had a good argument about it if the evidence had been in time.)

Now to the contravention itself. The photos are poor. Are there kerb marks is a question I would like the answer to. Para 13.18.2 of Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual (guidance but due consideration should be given to it) 2019 edition, says

The sign should be used with a parking bay appropriate to the lower panel, together with a single yellow line running through the bay to indicate the prohibition of waiting and, if appropriate, single kerb marks to indicate a prohibition of loading.

We have given the OP a lot of information. I think I would keep it simple with Camden and say that given the disability, a PCN after 3 minutes, within the 10 minute grace period at the end of a period of permitted parking, should in all fairness be cancelled.


--------------------
All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 10:09
Post #40


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,064
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Mr M's reference could possibly be used to the OP's advantage.

To return to the first limb of the conditions, which we seem intent on skipping:

2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to © of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place ....

(The only reasonable interpretation of 'is stationary' must be that at the time of the contravention the vehicle is stationary and not that at some prior time it was stationary)

It seems clear from Mr M's reference to the government's response to the consultation that they saw two mutually exclusive situations only:

A length of street which is a designated parking place;
That same length of street which is subject to a different restriction e.g. waiting etc.

And how could the regs define this distinction? Easy, just make the FIRST part of the conditions that the vehicle must be stationary in a designated parking place.

Unfortunately, despite extensive consultation all parties failed to identify the third situation:
That same length of street which is marked 24/7 as a parking place but is also subject to a part-time waiting restriction.

IMO, the argument could go that a purposive interpretation of the regs is that they were seeking to provide a 10-minute safety net for motorists as regards the restriction to which they were subject when initially parking in a designated parking place. The parliamentary draughtsman did not contemplate the circumstances which are the centre of these representations/appeal in which within a marked parking place there are distinct parking and waiting restrictions.

Whatever happens the OP MUST get the authority to state its position, for example:
Does the underlying order create a 24/7 designated parking place? If not, what does it provide?


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 10:41
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here