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Blanking EGR Valve, Legalities of it
glasgow_bhoy
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 11:03
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Alright guys,

I picked up a new car a week ago on Tuesday night. On the friday I was on the outside lane of the M6 and it decided it was time to go into limp mode... I carried on my journey and the car went into the garage on Tuesday when I got back up the road. Its been there since, and was finally diagnosed yesterday as needing an EGR valve replaced. So I should, all going well, get the car back on Tuesday. There was no reason for it to fail- its a 4 year old car with 65k on the clock.. so hardly low mileage (1 owner from new, and last year the car did 18k according to service history). MPG was under 40 most of the 4 days the car was in my possession (it also spend a day at the dealers for another issue).

However, the cost of the EGR valve, including fitting, is nearly £900 from the dealer. Thankfully, I'd only had the car a few days, and for 900 miles before it went back in, and in any case I took out a 2 year extended warrenty.

However, I'm aware the EGR valve is a week point on the 1.6TDi engine, and as such I'm considering getting it blanked out and then getting the car remapped. Online I've read conflicting reports about the EGR situation in an MOT, and even in roadside emissions tests.

Does anyone know whether the EGR deletion would be an issue at MOT time, and if so how easy it would be for the tester to actually notice and subsequently fail it? I'll be doing over 20k a year in the car, and will probably keep it for 2 years (3 at most), so would prefer to avoid paying out my own pocket for another consumable which seems prone to failure.
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post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 11:03
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Quicksilver
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 11:37
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If I remember correctly you can usually just apply a blanking plate wick gos in series with the valve. It looks the same but does not allow the recirculation. On a diesel I doubt this will be an issue for emissions testing. The EGR valve is usually well hidden so it is unlikely that any tester will notice. Even if they do it would only become relevant if it failed some emissions test.

Get it done.
Q.

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homeruk
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:11
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:03) *
Alright guys,

I picked up a new car a week ago on Tuesday night. On the friday I was on the outside lane of the M6 and it decided it was time to go into limp mode... I carried on my journey and the car went into the garage on Tuesday when I got back up the road. Its been there since, and was finally diagnosed yesterday as needing an EGR valve replaced. So I should, all going well, get the car back on Tuesday. There was no reason for it to fail- its a 4 year old car with 65k on the clock.. so hardly low mileage (1 owner from new, and last year the car did 18k according to service history). MPG was under 40 most of the 4 days the car was in my possession (it also spend a day at the dealers for another issue).

However, the cost of the EGR valve, including fitting, is nearly £900 from the dealer. Thankfully, I'd only had the car a few days, and for 900 miles before it went back in, and in any case I took out a 2 year extended warrenty.

However, I'm aware the EGR valve is a week point on the 1.6TDi engine, and as such I'm considering getting it blanked out and then getting the car remapped. Online I've read conflicting reports about the EGR situation in an MOT, and even in roadside emissions tests.

Does anyone know whether the EGR deletion would be an issue at MOT time, and if so how easy it would be for the tester to actually notice and subsequently fail it? I'll be doing over 20k a year in the car, and will probably keep it for 2 years (3 at most), so would prefer to avoid paying out my own pocket for another consumable which seems prone to failure.


Won't be an issue at mot time , unless the engine is so badly worn it fails the smoke test, which is the only test for emissions for diesels.

Lots of people have donecit with no apparent issues.

900 quid! Given how easy they are to change , is the new one made of gold and the queen changing it?

cough rip off cough

This post has been edited by homeruk: Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:13
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facade
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:16
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:03) *
However, the cost of the EGR valve, including fitting, is nearly £900 from the dealer. Thankfully, I'd only had the car a few days, and for 900 miles before it went back in, and in any case I took out a 2 year extended warrenty.


Is it covered?

Most extended warranties are not worth the paper that they are printed on, as they specifically exclude anything that could possibly wear out or fail, and an EGR valve is considered a consumable.


However at 900 miles and one week, I would expect the supplying dealer to sort it FOC.
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Kieran_e1
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:26
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what car is it. more likely to be the Diesel Particulate Filter being blocked causing limp mode.

DPF delete and a remap would be a cheaper option and potentially reduce running costs too. But be aware the mot is being changed to fail a car with a dpf delete pipe so most places now just hollow out the stock pipe ( a bit like you used to get with cat's back in the early days. )

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glasgow_bhoy
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:31
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QUOTE (homeruk @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:11) *
Won't be an issue at mot time , unless the engine is so badly worn it fails the smoke test, which is the only test for emissions for diesels.

Lots of people have donecit with no apparent issues.

900 quid! Given how easy they are to change , is the new one made of gold and the queen changing it?

cough rip off cough

Labour rate is at main dealer prices- clearly I'm not paying that this time as its covered by warrenty, and in any case provided I don't change job (which I'm likely to do in the next 2 years) I get half price labour and cost price parts, but its when I don't get that discount I'm concerned.

QUOTE (facade @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:16) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:03) *
However, the cost of the EGR valve, including fitting, is nearly £900 from the dealer. Thankfully, I'd only had the car a few days, and for 900 miles before it went back in, and in any case I took out a 2 year extended warrenty.


Is it covered?

Most extended warranties are not worth the paper that they are printed on, as they specifically exclude anything that could possibly wear out or fail, and an EGR valve is considered a consumable.


However at 900 miles and one week, I would expect the supplying dealer to sort it FOC.

I doubt it will be covered in the 2 year warranty I've paid £550 for. It is however covered during the first 60 days I own the car as per the dealers warranty. The one I've bought is a decent one though- I've got experience in working with it and in fairness it covers things like clutches, gearboxes etc no problem- I wouldn't have bought it if I wasn't so familiar with the product smile.gif

Its being sorted FOC on this occasion though- plus they've put me in a hire car for a week (although I've also got a Luton van on hire from them and I'm liking that more than the hire car!).


Is it worth getting the EGR blanking plate before the valve goes again, or can I wait till it goes and then have it done?
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homeruk
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:48
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:31) *
QUOTE (homeruk @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:11) *
Won't be an issue at mot time , unless the engine is so badly worn it fails the smoke test, which is the only test for emissions for diesels.

Lots of people have donecit with no apparent issues.

900 quid! Given how easy they are to change , is the new one made of gold and the queen changing it?

cough rip off cough

Labour rate is at main dealer prices- clearly I'm not paying that this time as its covered by warrenty, and in any case provided I don't change job (which I'm likely to do in the next 2 years) I get half price labour and cost price parts, but its when I don't get that discount I'm concerned.

QUOTE (facade @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:16) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:03) *
However, the cost of the EGR valve, including fitting, is nearly £900 from the dealer. Thankfully, I'd only had the car a few days, and for 900 miles before it went back in, and in any case I took out a 2 year extended warrenty.


Is it covered?

Most extended warranties are not worth the paper that they are printed on, as they specifically exclude anything that could possibly wear out or fail, and an EGR valve is considered a consumable.


However at 900 miles and one week, I would expect the supplying dealer to sort it FOC.

I doubt it will be covered in the 2 year warranty I've paid £550 for. It is however covered during the first 60 days I own the car as per the dealers warranty. The one I've bought is a decent one though- I've got experience in working with it and in fairness it covers things like clutches, gearboxes etc no problem- I wouldn't have bought it if I wasn't so familiar with the product smile.gif

Its being sorted FOC on this occasion though- plus they've put me in a hire car for a week (although I've also got a Luton van on hire from them and I'm liking that more than the hire car!).


Is it worth getting the EGR blanking plate before the valve goes again, or can I wait till it goes and then have it done?


Personally I would be pulling the egr valve and checking its actually failed before considering my options , most egrs just need a good clean to sort them out.

How much is an egr for your car at the discount price you would pay?

Be wary about just blanking the egr without doing a remap as some ecus monitor the egr flow and will throw the car into limp mode if it doesnt detect any
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glasgow_bhoy
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:04
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The dealers initially thought it was the DPF, but has now investigated further and its defo an EGR replacement thats needed. I'd rather they replaced it than just cleaned it anyway- its not coming out my pocket!

Not sure how much the part would be at my discounted price- I'd imagine it woulnd't be a huge amount. I'd be getting a map done anyway if I had the egr blanked- I've read some horror stories!
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sgtdixie
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 14:56
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GB, ever thought of buying a decent car and saving some money?
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DancingDad
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 16:02
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I'm with the clean not replace group.
Most EGRs are a relatively simple valve that just clogs up with the gunge chucked out in exhausts.
And not only the EGR but the inlet pipes/manifold/throttle body also clog.

Main dealers and many garages will not clean as it's not 100% guaranteed it will fix it..... just IMO 90-99%
And of course they only make labour costs if they clean instead of labour and the profit on a nice shiny, new but un-needed valve.

Blanking...depends on car and ECU system. Many require feed back from the valve that it is operating and providing that with a blanking plate isn't easy.
Some engines cannot be simply blanked as the valve sits inside the manifold.
All systems are set up to allow for operation with an EGR so fuel air ratio is likely to be wrong at lower speeds.
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Tancred
post Sat, 10 May 2014 - 19:11
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It's difficult to find concrete information on this as there's lots of discussion and speculation but little in the way of actual data. My understanding is that although the DPF must now be present (although questionable how they can detect it if the DPF insides have been removed and thee exterior left intact), the EGR valve doesn't so a blanking plate wouldn't fail an MOT but I don't know for definite.

That said, I'd still go down the road of getting it cleaned rather than a blanking plate fitted or if they're going to fit a new part I'd probably want a new EGR valve back on. At least I'd do some research on how the blanking plate affects the engine as I don't think it's always as straight forward as the blanking plate making it much better as some claim.
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glasgow_bhoy
post Sun, 11 May 2014 - 00:29
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QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 15:56) *
GB, ever thought of buying a decent car and saving some money?

Lol that was the plan- the Clio was decent apart from headlights and shizz... I only went browsing to buy a few weeks ago with the intention of getting a pre-reg Ibiza 1.2TDi or a 12 plate Lancer TDi.... however saw my car (its flurescent coloured and has a sport pack bodykit) and decided I had to have it.... cost me a few grand less than a brand new car and is a much nicer looking car! Plus it handles relatively well (anything would after a Clio) and is nippy enough (again, in comparison to a diesel clio...). And the wheels are purdyyy (17 inch's and nice and kerbed... due to be refurbed and powdercoated next week).

So long story short, I went to look at decent cars, and ended up buying a pure belter of an older car. Wouldn't have it any other way!



With regard to cleaning the valve- I have to admit if I'm paying for it, I'd rather not have someone clean it only to find its not been successful. Its the labour which appears to bump up the price significantly, so I don't mind paying out for a part. However I'd rather to nether which is why I'm looking at options which don't involve the damned part altogether smile.gif

This post has been edited by glasgow_bhoy: Sun, 11 May 2014 - 00:31
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Mat_Shamus
post Sun, 11 May 2014 - 09:26
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EGR delete is illegal on a technicality, but it's illegal in the same way as cycling without pedal reflectors at night is. I.e very unlikely to ever be charged for it.
It's not an MOT fail currently to remove or bypass it but i've heard rumours VOSA are wanting to streamline it with some other EU countries where remaps, EGR deletes will be a fail as well.

QUOTE (Kieran_e1 @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:26) *
But be aware the mot is being changed to fail a car with a dpf delete pipe so most places now just hollow out the stock pipe


It's already came into action since Feb this year


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jdh
post Sun, 11 May 2014 - 09:59
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sun, 11 May 2014 - 01:29) *
So long story short, I went to look at decent cars, and ended up buying a...

...lemon
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AFCNEAL
post Sun, 11 May 2014 - 11:02
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QUOTE (homeruk @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:48) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:31) *
QUOTE (homeruk @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:11) *
Won't be an issue at mot time , unless the engine is so badly worn it fails the smoke test, which is the only test for emissions for diesels.

Lots of people have donecit with no apparent issues.

900 quid! Given how easy they are to change , is the new one made of gold and the queen changing it?

cough rip off cough

Labour rate is at main dealer prices- clearly I'm not paying that this time as its covered by warrenty, and in any case provided I don't change job (which I'm likely to do in the next 2 years) I get half price labour and cost price parts, but its when I don't get that discount I'm concerned.

QUOTE (facade @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 13:16) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 12:03) *
However, the cost of the EGR valve, including fitting, is nearly £900 from the dealer. Thankfully, I'd only had the car a few days, and for 900 miles before it went back in, and in any case I took out a 2 year extended warrenty.


Is it covered?

Most extended warranties are not worth the paper that they are printed on, as they specifically exclude anything that could possibly wear out or fail, and an EGR valve is considered a consumable.


However at 900 miles and one week, I would expect the supplying dealer to sort it FOC.

I doubt it will be covered in the 2 year warranty I've paid £550 for. It is however covered during the first 60 days I own the car as per the dealers warranty. The one I've bought is a decent one though- I've got experience in working with it and in fairness it covers things like clutches, gearboxes etc no problem- I wouldn't have bought it if I wasn't so familiar with the product smile.gif

Its being sorted FOC on this occasion though- plus they've put me in a hire car for a week (although I've also got a Luton van on hire from them and I'm liking that more than the hire car!).


Is it worth getting the EGR blanking plate before the valve goes again, or can I wait till it goes and then have it done?


Personally I would be pulling the egr valve and checking its actually failed before considering my options , most egrs just need a good clean to sort them out.



+1 - you can also buy EGR cleaner which is an easy DIY option before blowing lodsa money. I too wonder if they have EGR muddled with DPF (also able to be cleaned DIY)...............


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DancingDad
post Sun, 11 May 2014 - 12:09
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GB have you looked on forums that deal with the actual motor?
It may not be easy to blank on your engine.
Makes any discussions on legality academic.

New or clean?
Takes me an hour or so, twice a year on my Scenic to pull the valve, clean and refit. No way am I paying a Renault main dealer best part of five hundred to stick a new one in. That's what my local place quoted last year when I asked. If I really need a new one, Europarts and other suppliers are around a third of dealer cost.
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homeruk
post Sun, 11 May 2014 - 14:12
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 17:02) *
I'm with the clean not replace group.
Most EGRs are a relatively simple valve that just clogs up with the gunge chucked out in exhausts.
And not only the EGR but the inlet pipes/manifold/throttle body also clog.

Main dealers and many garages will not clean as it's not 100% guaranteed it will fix it..... just IMO 90-99%
And of course they only make labour costs if they clean instead of labour and the profit on a nice shiny, new but un-needed valve.

Blanking...depends on car and ECU system. Many require feed back from the valve that it is operating and providing that with a blanking plate isn't easy.
Some engines cannot be simply blanked as the valve sits inside the manifold.
All systems are set up to allow for operation with an EGR so fuel air ratio is likely to be wrong at lower speeds.


Fuel/air will be wrong at higher speeds , egr valves do not open until higher speeds.
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Mat_Shamus
post Sun, 11 May 2014 - 14:48
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QUOTE (homeruk @ Sun, 11 May 2014 - 15:12) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 17:02) *
I'm with the clean not replace group.
Most EGRs are a relatively simple valve that just clogs up with the gunge chucked out in exhausts.
And not only the EGR but the inlet pipes/manifold/throttle body also clog.

Main dealers and many garages will not clean as it's not 100% guaranteed it will fix it..... just IMO 90-99%
And of course they only make labour costs if they clean instead of labour and the profit on a nice shiny, new but un-needed valve.

Blanking...depends on car and ECU system. Many require feed back from the valve that it is operating and providing that with a blanking plate isn't easy.
Some engines cannot be simply blanked as the valve sits inside the manifold.
All systems are set up to allow for operation with an EGR so fuel air ratio is likely to be wrong at lower speeds.


Fuel/air will be wrong at higher speeds , egr valves do not open until higher speeds.


Does it not vary from car to car?
My EGR doesn't operate over 2000rpm on a PD130 *** engine


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DancingDad
post Sun, 11 May 2014 - 16:34
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QUOTE (Mat_Shamus @ Sun, 11 May 2014 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (homeruk @ Sun, 11 May 2014 - 15:12) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 17:02) *
I'm with the clean not replace group.
Most EGRs are a relatively simple valve that just clogs up with the gunge chucked out in exhausts.
And not only the EGR but the inlet pipes/manifold/throttle body also clog.

Main dealers and many garages will not clean as it's not 100% guaranteed it will fix it..... just IMO 90-99%
And of course they only make labour costs if they clean instead of labour and the profit on a nice shiny, new but un-needed valve.

Blanking...depends on car and ECU system. Many require feed back from the valve that it is operating and providing that with a blanking plate isn't easy.
Some engines cannot be simply blanked as the valve sits inside the manifold.
All systems are set up to allow for operation with an EGR so fuel air ratio is likely to be wrong at lower speeds.


Fuel/air will be wrong at higher speeds , egr valves do not open until higher speeds.


Does it not vary from car to car?
My EGR doesn't operate over 2000rpm on a PD130 *** engine


At higher speeds the EGR should be shut.
They only open at low engine speeds and allow exhaust gas back into combustion chambers where it reduces Nitrogen Oxide emmissions. Effectively meaning that when diesels are ticking over they are less harmful to the atmosphere then without an EGR.
Once engine speed increases, the EGR shuts. If it doesn't, there is a risk that exhaust gases will be pumped back in at volumes that far exceed useful levels or that the turbo boost into the inlets will simply disappear out of the exhaust. Either way, the wee beasty ain't gonna run right and emmissions really do suffer.

Problems with EGRs occur when either it cloggs full of sooty cr*p (and so does the inlet manifold) so reduces air flow or when it jams open.

Exactly what engine speed it cycles at depends on engine and managment system but considering most turbos start to kick in around 1800 RPM, the EGR should be shut before then.
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homeruk
post Sun, 11 May 2014 - 16:40
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 11 May 2014 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Mat_Shamus @ Sun, 11 May 2014 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (homeruk @ Sun, 11 May 2014 - 15:12) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 10 May 2014 - 17:02) *
I'm with the clean not replace group.
Most EGRs are a relatively simple valve that just clogs up with the gunge chucked out in exhausts.
And not only the EGR but the inlet pipes/manifold/throttle body also clog.

Main dealers and many garages will not clean as it's not 100% guaranteed it will fix it..... just IMO 90-99%
And of course they only make labour costs if they clean instead of labour and the profit on a nice shiny, new but un-needed valve.

Blanking...depends on car and ECU system. Many require feed back from the valve that it is operating and providing that with a blanking plate isn't easy.
Some engines cannot be simply blanked as the valve sits inside the manifold.
All systems are set up to allow for operation with an EGR so fuel air ratio is likely to be wrong at lower speeds.


Fuel/air will be wrong at higher speeds , egr valves do not open until higher speeds.


Does it not vary from car to car?
My EGR doesn't operate over 2000rpm on a PD130 *** engine


At higher speeds the EGR should be shut.
They only open at low engine speeds and allow exhaust gas back into combustion chambers where it reduces Nitrogen Oxide emmissions. Effectively meaning that when diesels are ticking over they are less harmful to the atmosphere then without an EGR.
Once engine speed increases, the EGR shuts. If it doesn't, there is a risk that exhaust gases will be pumped back in at volumes that far exceed useful levels or that the turbo boost into the inlets will simply disappear out of the exhaust. Either way, the wee beasty ain't gonna run right and emmissions really do suffer.

Problems with EGRs occur when either it cloggs full of sooty cr*p (and so does the inlet manifold) so reduces air flow or when it jams open.

Exactly what engine speed it cycles at depends on engine and managment system but considering most turbos start to kick in around 1800 RPM, the EGR should be shut before then.


If an egr was open at idle it would cause rough idle and erratic tick over , one of the first things you check for when your idle is rough is a jammed open egr
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