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School Lines PCN
BerenElly
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:05
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Hello All,

On the 6th of January I parked on school lines near work. I have parked on these lines for the last 4 Years in non term times.

I checked the schools website on if the school was open and the 5th and 6th of January were down as INSET days. I proceeded to park there on the 5th and the 6th of January.

After work on the 6th I was greeted by a PCN for parking on the school lines. I promptly appealed with the following text:

Summary of Reasons for Challenge: I and many of my colleagues/people in the area have always parked here during non term times on these school lines. I have personally parked here every day since Friday 22/12. I've also parked here during every summer holiday since 2014

Attached is the document on term times from St George's school. It notes that today is closed which I was sure to check before I parked.

Can this be reviewed as mentioned it's never been an issue before


I finally received word back on 09/02, rejecting my appeal as per the below:

Please accept my apoligoes for the delay on my reply.
The Notice was issued as the vehicle was was seen failing to comply with the “School
Restriction” traffic restriction in *********** . The "No Stopping" on entrance markings,
restriction operates Monday to Friday 8:15 am to 9:45 am and 3:00 to 4:30 pm as shown on the
sign, which is clearly displayed at the location and is also indicated by “Keep Clear” and
‘zigzag’ markings on the road. In order to view the photographic evidence, please visit our
website on www.wandsworth.gov.uk/pcnonline and enter the Penalty Charge Notice number
and vehicle registration number. A vehicle is not permitted to park on school restriction
markings during the times shown as this can cause considerable obstruction and danger to
children.
It is the motorist’s responsibility to abide by the traffic regulations at all times. Having
reviewed this matter, I am satisfied that the Notice was correctly issued.
Given the above, I am satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued and regrettably, you have
not established sufficient grounds for cancellation of this penalty charge. As your enquiry was
received within the discount period the amount of £65.00, will be accepted if payment is
received within 14 days of the date of this letter.

This concludes the Council’s dealings in this matter at this stage.


The issue I have is that the school was SHUT. I'm not sure how I could have caused obstruction and danger to children, as per their reasoning highlighted above?

Could anyone advise if I actually have a case here and what I can do to take this further, if so?

Thanks all for your time
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post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:05
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peterguk
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:10
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QUOTE (BerenElly @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:05) *
I parked on school lines near work.


Just to clarify, are you referring to zig zags on which there is No Stopping?


--------------------
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:13
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we need to see the PCN and a GSV if the restriction is Mon to Fri at the times and does not qualify it with "term Times " then legitimate expectation is likely your only avenue. But that is a one shot out because you would now know of the restriction
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DancingDad
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:14
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One of those PCNs where it would seem absolutely no reason to serve or to continue enforcement but assuming signs and lines are correct, the law allows councils to serve them.
And provides no easy ways of getting them cancelled.

Best post up the PCN, location and full correspondence sent or received.
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BerenElly
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:31
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Sorry all for lack of information:

The PCN is currently in my glovebox, will post tonight.



I was parked on Zig-Zig yellow Lines. There is a sign as per the attached, which is correct.



I understand that the sign doesn't say "During Term Times" but I'm just baffled as to why I have been "done" this time out of all the times parking there over the years and why I wasn't done the day before which was a inset day. This week for example, all the lines are packed full of cars - the whole way around the perimeter of the school. Not one car has a PCN on it!




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Neil B
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:37
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How would a CEO know it's an 'inset' day? I don't even know what one is.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:37
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It's half term this week. So an Inset day should be a good defence in my view if the CEOs are only pitching up during the official term times. Does the term start date say 7 Jan?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:52
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:37) *
It's half term this week. So an Inset day should be a good defence in my view if the CEOs are only pitching up during the official term times. Does the term start date say 7 Jan?


Inset days are taken during term time, often at the beginning or at the end of term. They are training days or days used to set up the school etc. No kids allowed.

so if as was the case at the school my better half works term started 4th Jan 4th and 5th were inset days but actually term time

In typing this just realized 6th was a Saturday we need to see that PCN

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:54
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stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 15:15
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Yes, wrong dates here. My kids started back on 4 Jan. 3 Jan was a 'training day' but not labelled as Inset. But that's a secondary school. A local primary I see had a term start date of 8 Jan.
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BerenElly
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 15:18
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:52) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:37) *
It's half term this week. So an Inset day should be a good defence in my view if the CEOs are only pitching up during the official term times. Does the term start date say 7 Jan?


Inset days are taken during term time, often at the beginning or at the end of term. They are training days or days used to set up the school etc. No kids allowed.

so if as was the case at the school my better half works term started 4th Jan 4th and 5th were inset days but actually term time

In typing this just realized 6th was a Saturday we need to see that PCN



But as they've already rejected my PCN on grounds of "Endangering Children" what do I do next? As someone else mentioned the sign doesn't specifically exclude non term times and they could use that against me?

I will post the PCN as soon as I can tonight (: but I have input the wrong dates on this whole topic! (Dodgy free calendar from a supplier!) I received the PCN on the 4th, but the 3rd and 4th were inset days. I parked on the 3rd without any issues.

The below is a copy and paste from the school website:

Spring Term

Inset Day: Wednesday 3rd

3rd January 2018 – School Closed

Thursday 4th January 2018 – School Closed

School Open: Friday 5th January 2018 8:30am

Sorry for the confusion
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stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 15:20
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Where is this?
Answer:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4767779,-0....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 15:57
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cp8759
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 18:32
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BerenElly Unless there's some fatal flaw in the PCN, they probably have you banged to rights on the contravention, the restriction purports to be enforceable every day regardless of whether the school is open or not. I would however suggest you ask for the Traffic Regulation Order, just to confirm.

However I think you have ground to have the PCN cancelled on a procedural impropriety. The council is under a duty to consider your representations, and your representation was effectively that the PCN should be cancelled because the school was shut. By completely ignoring this point, the council has committed a procedural impropriety (They could have considered this point and rejected it as grounds for cancellation, but they can't ignore it). Once we've had a look at all the paperwork we'll be able to advise if there are any further grounds, but this looks worth fighting already.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 22:25
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?
What the OP has posted clearly states the authority's position: you cannot stop on the markings during the times displayed.

They don't then have to say.. and as these are not limited to term times we reject your challenge, IMO and I'm certain that of any adj, their response carries implicit consideration of the point made by the OP and any PI claim would fail. It would also have to clear the hurdle of having to be included in any reps and if the authority were in any doubt they'd cover their backs in any NOR.

Unless the TMO refers to a term-time restriction and the sign is wrong then if the authority play hard ball I don't see how an adj could find against them unless they c**k-up procedurally.
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 22:36
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Which takes us back to "legitimate expectation" if the OP had been parking in this manner for 4 years.

The Council are obliged to inform residents that enforcement would recommence if, by custom and usage, residents had been parking in this manner. Otherwise unfairness (in the legal sense) is evident.

Mick
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stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 23:19
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This revolves around the Inset days. This week cars are parking there because of half term (so legitimate expectation). OP will need to demonstrate that term did not start until 5th but while an adjudicator would no doubt recognise this, is it in their gift to uphold the appeal?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 23:23
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 23:19) *
This revolves around the Inset days. This week cars are parking there because of half term (so legitimate expectation). OP will need to demonstrate that term did not start until 5th but while an adjudicator would no doubt recognise this, is it in their gift to uphold the appeal?



If they allow an appeal on the basis of legitimate expectation, it is for them to find as to what that expectation was. School was closed website said it was closed is that enough??
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stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 23:26
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 23:23) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 23:19) *
This revolves around the Inset days. This week cars are parking there because of half term (so legitimate expectation). OP will need to demonstrate that term did not start until 5th but while an adjudicator would no doubt recognise this, is it in their gift to uphold the appeal?



If they allow an appeal on the basis of legitimate expectation, it is for them to find as to what that expectation was. School was closed website said it was closed is that enough??


Indeed I would have thought so - but we're taking London prices here... I think I'd go for it.

What I would do now is take some pictures of cars parked there during half term.
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BerenElly
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 09:45
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Hi all,

Sorry for the late reply, the PCN issued is attached below.
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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 09:56
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QUOTE (BerenElly @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 09:45) *
Hi all,

Sorry for the late reply, the PCN issued is attached below.

We need to see the back too please.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 11:45
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An adj would not interfere with an authority's claim to the penalty if the council claim that the restriction is not term-time, never was and was never intended to be. The sign options are 'term--time' or all days, there is no option of except when the school is closed to pupils but open for teachers and maintenance vehicles and when a motorist thinks it's OK to park.

We bandy legitimate expectation as if provided an owner believes it, then it's OK. Unfortunately for the OP, an adj would need more proof. To start this evidence gathering they need to put the matter to the authority in specific and quantified terms, not generalisations. And they must require the authority to answer the question whether it is custom and practice for CEOs to alter their patrolling programme/enforcement standards at this location during school holidays. (INSET days are holidays as regards the school - term times and definitions apply externally to pupils and parents, not internally as regards employees and do not count towards the statutory number of school days in a year).
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