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Driving Without Reasonable Consideration - Court
VictorMortis
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:17
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I was travelling south on the M3 motorway. At J14, it splits into two sections, one to go west and one to go east, both go onto the A33 or M27 further down.

I will post pictures below to show my path and the road to make it as clear as possible.

I came off the M3 onto the M27 West which also exits to the A33, into lane 2. My speed was about 60mph. As I left the M3, I increased my speed as the road ahead was clear. A car I was overtaking started to move into lane 2 without indicating, the lane I was in. I checked my mirrors, it was clear so I indicated and moved back onto the M3 as I can just take the next exit to the A33 so there was no need to fight over the road. At this point, I was travelling at 70mph.

I changed into lane 2 of the M3 to overtake a car in front and a police car indicated for me to stop. I did so and he asked me to accompany him in his car.

He asked me to point out in the video he showed me what I think I had done wrong.

I had no answer as I hadn't done anything wrong, in my views. I suspected he was going to ask why I undertook him so I said "Yeah, I thought that guy was going to pull out again because I was initially going down that way" (exact quote)



Images below show the paths
Red is me, blue is the police car and green is the car I avoided. (I will explain as clearly as I can below.)










Several points of the officers statement are untrue

1- He said in his statement that -- It was raining with areas of standing water, it was spitting at a push, there were no puddles.
2- He said in his statement that -- I was in front of him initially, I was not. I was in the middle and first lane but not in front until I rejoined the M3.
3- He said in his statement that -- I refused to give him my details and that I said I am not obliged to do so. I actually did not give him my driving license as I didn't have it on me but gave him all the details he required such as name, address, DOB and insurance details. His exact words were: "You have, by law, to carry your driving license and a certificate of insurance under the road traffic act"
4- He said in his statement -- "only after warning the male that he may face arrest if he continued to refuse, the driver then provided the details of......" This is untrue. He asked for my name, dob, etc and I gave them without delay or obstruction.
5- He said in his statement -- "I witnessed ******* make a sudden lane change without indication, undertake a slower moving vehicle, then change lane again causing the other vehicle to brake sharply to avoid a collision" - If the car was moving slower than me, the driver wouldn't have had to brake, surely? More to the point, there was no car there. If he provides a video in court, we will be able to see that. He already said that he couldn't see what happened right next to him (the car changing into the lane I was in). During the verbal NIP, he said he was doing me for undertaking him.

6- He said in his statement -- "Whilst completing the report ********* was obstructive and refused to provide answers to the following requests 1) self define his ethnicity 2) contact number 3) occupation 4) Sign to acknowledge a copy of the traffic offence report, stating that he had no intention of paying the fine or going to court. ---- I actually said "I prefer not to disclose" to the first three and the 4th point, he said "we can go straight to court" which I told him I wished for that option.
He said that I have the option of paying the ticket or going to court.
He then said as he let me out of the car "I'm guessing, I'll see you in court"
I, at no point, said that I have no intention to pay the fine or going to court. I opted for court before he even wrote the ticket for T60

He admitted to not seeing what happened to his left-hand side but in the statement, he says he saw what happened.

I don't know if he is thinking he can pull the wool over my eyes being a 'newish' driver... I have been driving for about 3 years (most on a provisional under L plates of a friend - passed my test first time, not trying to brag). I have also been riding motorcycles 9 years, half of that on a full license, the previous years on a CBT. I am a confident road user. I am shocked at his lies.

I forgot to mention, I have it all recorded on my phone. It's quite long but if you think it'll be helpful, I can post it here. It recorded both audio and video which did capture the video he was showing me.


The case was adjourned at the request of the prosecution and there is an application for a live link. From the paperwork, it sounds like this is a standard thing they do?

Also, I have either lost his first statement in my paperwork or they didn't send it.
On the 8th December 2015, I was sent paperwork which says it enclosed statements. (NOTICE TO THE DEFENDANT; PROOF BY WRITTEN STATEMENT)
On the 12th January 2016, I was sent the same paperwork but with the new dates and the statement I have been quoting. (statement signed on 03/01/2016 so can't be the same as the one previously sent - can I obtain this?)


I'm not the most charismatic person in the world but at the same time, I cannot afford a lawyer.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
As I have said, the video does back up my account of events and I'm happy to post it.

This post has been edited by VictorMortis: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 - 11:53
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post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:17
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peterguk
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:36
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QUOTE (VictorMortis @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:17) *
As I have said, the video does back up my account of events and I'm happy to post it.


If the BiB's video shows you to be totally correct, and him to be totally incorrect, what are you worried about?


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VictorMortis
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:47
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:36) *
QUOTE (VictorMortis @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:17) *
As I have said, the video does back up my account of events and I'm happy to post it.


If the BiB's video shows you to be totally correct, and him to be totally incorrect, what are you worried about?


I'm worried about what it doesn't show, which is what happened to his left.

He claimed he didn't see anything but now he claims he saw something.
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:49
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Is the prosecution aware of your video?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:51
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:49) *
Is the prosecution aware of your video?


I assumed it was BiB's in-car video:

"I did so and he asked me to accompany him in his car. He asked me to point out in the video..."

OP needs to clarify.


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southpaw82
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:53
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:51) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:49) *
Is the prosecution aware of your video?


I assumed it was BiB's in-car video:

"I did so and he asked me to accompany him in his car. He asked me to point out in the video..."

OP needs to clarify.

I believe the defendant has his own video and audio (on his phone), which also happens to show the prosecution video. He can't just whip his video out in court though, it'll need to be disclosed to the prosecution in advance.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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VictorMortis
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:56
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:53) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:51) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 19:49) *
Is the prosecution aware of your video?


I assumed it was BiB's in-car video:

"I did so and he asked me to accompany him in his car. He asked me to point out in the video..."

OP needs to clarify.

I believe the defendant has his own video and audio (on his phone), which also happens to show the prosecution video. He can't just whip his video out in court though, it'll need to be disclosed to the prosecution in advance.


Yes, I have my own video.

I didn't specifically mention the video with the plea form which I did online. If not, how do I go about letting them know?

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southpaw82
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:01
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What stage of proceedings are you at? Have you made an appearance in court yet and entered a (not guilty) plea?


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VictorMortis
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:07
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:01) *
What stage of proceedings are you at? Have you made an appearance in court yet and entered a (not guilty) plea?


You can do it online. The first date doesn't require attendance (or that is what the paperwork says) so I could just go along to that and say I have a video?
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peterguk
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:10
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The first hearing is a plea hearing. If pleading NG, a trial date will be set.

You will have to send a copy of your video to the CPS in advance of the trial.

Others here will give more detail of the procedure re. forms etc.


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VictorMortis
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:11
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:10) *
The first hearing is a plea hearing. If pleading NG, a trial date will be set.

You will have to send a copy of your video to the CPS in advance of the trial.

Others here will give more detail of the procedure re. forms etc.



https://www.makeaplea.service.gov.uk/plea/enter_urn/

You can just do it there. Suppose I should have given the video.

Can I request their video? They haven't stated they will be using a video either.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:16
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You can wait until after your not guilty plea (on your first court date), whether you appear in person or plea online/by post. After that date you can send a letter to the CPS (don't forget to include the case reference) advising them of the existence of the video and offering to make arrangements for them to view it and/or have a copy.

At the same time you can ask for disclosure of their video. Bear in mind that this only has to be disclosed to you if (a) they intend to rely on it, (b) it assists your defence, or © it undermines the prosecution. If none of those apply then they do not have to disclose it to you without a court order.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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VictorMortis
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:19
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:16) *
You can wait until after your not guilty plea (on your first court date), whether you appear in person or plea online/by post. After that date you can send a letter to the CPS (don't forget to include the case reference) advising them of the existence of the video and offering to make arrangements for them to view it and/or have a copy.

At the same time you can ask for disclosure of their video. Bear in mind that this only has to be disclosed to you if (a) they intend to rely on it, (b) it assists your defence, or © it undermines the prosecution. If none of those apply then they do not have to disclose it to you without a court order.



Well, it is somewhat for my defense.

He says I was in front of him in his statement and the video will show that I wasn't.

The video I have, although in HD, doesn't show a great picture of his screen.


In offering them to view the video, what are my obligations? Just make them aware of the video and wait for them to request to see it?
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southpaw82
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:27
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The fact that you want to use it for your defence isn't enough. They would have to believe, in their opinion, that the video would assist you in your defence. Before they can make that decision you have to tell them what your defence is (by way of a defence statement under s. 6 of the Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996). If they won't release it you would have to make an application to court (under s. 8).

Your obligation is to disclose the existence of the video. They will probably want to view it and you should co-operate with them in allowing them to view it and/or send them a copy. If it completely exonerates you they may well withdraw the charge before trial.


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VictorMortis
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:32
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:27) *
The fact that you want to use it for your defence isn't enough. They would have to believe, in their opinion, that the video would assist you in your defence. Before they can make that decision you have to tell them what your defence is (by way of a defence statement under s. 6 of the Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996). If they won't release it you would have to make an application to court (under s. 8).

Your obligation is to disclose the existence of the video. They will probably want to view it and you should co-operate with them in allowing them to view it and/or send them a copy. If it completely exonerates you they may well withdraw the charge before trial.


I don't understand why the video thing is a one way relationship?

I have no problem giving them a copy of my video, why would they object to supplying it? Perhaps I'm missing something here.
As I said, my defense is that his statement is a lie and his video will help prove that. (location and presence of cars).

I don't know if it completely exonerates me but it sure as hell paints a bad picture for the officer.
How would I get them a copy? Send them a link to dropbox or something similar or would I have to get a memory card for it?

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peterguk
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:42
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QUOTE (VictorMortis @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:32) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:27) *
The fact that you want to use it for your defence isn't enough. They would have to believe, in their opinion, that the video would assist you in your defence. Before they can make that decision you have to tell them what your defence is (by way of a defence statement under s. 6 of the Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996). If they won't release it you would have to make an application to court (under s. 8).

Your obligation is to disclose the existence of the video. They will probably want to view it and you should co-operate with them in allowing them to view it and/or send them a copy. If it completely exonerates you they may well withdraw the charge before trial.


I don't understand why the video thing is a one way relationship?

I have no problem giving them a copy of my video, why would they object to supplying it? Perhaps I'm missing something here.
As I said, my defense is that his statement is a lie and his video will help prove that. (location and presence of cars).

I don't know if it completely exonerates me but it sure as hell paints a bad picture for the officer.
How would I get them a copy? Send them a link to dropbox or something similar or would I have to get a memory card for it?




The video thing is not a one way relationship. Rules of disclosure of evidence is the same for both sides. See SP's post above.

When you make them aware of your video, i'm sure you and wgoever you speak to will be able to agree on how to get a copy to them.


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southpaw82
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:49
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QUOTE (VictorMortis @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:32) *
I don't understand why the video thing is a one way relationship?


It's not. You have to disclose your video if you intend to rely on it in court, which it sounds like you do. Similarly, they would have to disclose their video if they intended to use it in court (we don't know yet whether they do or not). Additionally, the prosecution also has to produce any evidence in their possession which may assist the defence or undermine the prosecution. If anything the rules are biased in your favour, not theirs.


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VictorMortis
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:49
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:42) *
The video thing is not a one way relationship. Rules of disclosure of evidence is the same for both sides. See SP's post above.

When you make them aware of your video, i'm sure you and wgoever you speak to will be able to agree on how to get a copy to them.


sounded like it was lol.

ok, a further question...how do I contact the CPS? just write to the court?

Is it worth me just going? That wouldn't be an issue.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:51
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QUOTE (VictorMortis @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:49) *
ok, a further question...how do I contact the CPS? just write to the court?


No, you write to the CPS. Google it. There will be one for your area/county.

QUOTE
Is it worth me just going? That wouldn't be an issue.

If you wish.


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VictorMortis
post Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:53
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:51) *
QUOTE (VictorMortis @ Wed, 20 Jan 2016 - 20:49) *
ok, a further question...how do I contact the CPS? just write to the court?


No, you write to the CPS. Google it. There will be one for your area/county.

QUOTE
Is it worth me just going? That wouldn't be an issue.

If you wish.



Ok, cool. Found it.
The case is being dealt with at Aldershot court (I think all motoring offences are dealt with there in Hampshire). Does that affect the CPS I need to write to?

I'll send them a letter tomorrow.
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