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Accused of 61mph in 40mph. Only proof is speed gun
Wickedzombieanno...
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 03:01
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Hi,

As you have read briefly I was pulled over by police and was shown a radar speed gun and it showed the numbers of 61mph and the officer said that was my speed. Ive had my license for a year but im new at driving and only been driving for 3 weeks or less. The zone that it said i was doing 61 mph was a 40pmh zone. I told the officer that wasnt the speed i was going. He said that it was. He had no video evidence or anything else except for the speed gun. I didnt once admit that i was guilty of speeding. The officer said i will recieve a letter within 6 months and i asked what the letter will entail and he told me most likely a fine and 3 points. I told him again i wasnt speeding and then he just told me to drive safe and went back into his car after he was done talking. Is having a speed gun as the only evidence in court a strong case as he could have measured someone else speeding other than me. And if i do go to court and lose the case will i get more points than the initial amount which was 3 and i already know if i go to court and i lose the case i will get a much higher fine but im willing to risk that and also im willing to pay for a good solicitor/lawyer to help me try win the case. Can anyone tell me all the consequences if i do not win the case because if i do lose the case it will
Be impossible for me to get insured and go to work as i work 45 minutes away in the car and it takes about 2 hours on public transport.
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post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 03:01
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StuartBu
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 04:09
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QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 03:01) *
Hi,

As you have read briefly I was pulled over by police and was shown a radar speed gun and it showed the numbers of 61mph and the officer said that was my speed. Ive had my license for a year but im new at driving and only been driving for 3 weeks or less. The zone that it said i was doing 61 mph was a 40pmh zone. I told the officer that wasnt the speed i was going. He said that it was. He had no video evidence or anything else except for the speed gun. I didnt once admit that i was guilty of speeding. The officer said i will recieve a letter within 6 months and i asked what the letter will entail and he told me most likely a fine and 3 points. I told him again i wasnt speeding and then he just told me to drive safe and went back into his car after he was done talking. Is having a speed gun as the only evidence in court a strong case as he could have measured someone else speeding other than me. And if i do go to court and lose the case will i get more points than the initial amount which was 3 and i already know if i go to court and i lose the case i will get a much higher fine but im willing to risk that and also im willing to pay for a good solicitor/lawyer to help me try win the case. Can anyone tell me all the consequences if i do not win the case because if i do lose the case it will
Be impossible for me to get insured and go to work as i work 45 minutes away in the car and it takes about 2 hours on public transport.

Others will comment but nothing you have said above suggests you have a defence.If you get a COFP ( CONDITIONAL OFFER OF A FIXED PENALTY) take it.
Check yiur policy to see when/if you need to tell your indurers about any speeding offences and remind uourself you are a " New Driver" and there are strictures in the first 2 years of passing your test.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 08:22
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Why do you think they need a video?

The evidence is that officer says he targeted your car and took a speed reading using an almost certainly approved device (that was almost certainly laser), at a speed you kind of admit is probably true as it’s the limit you thought applied.

3 points will not make it impossible for you to get insured (presumably in a years time anyway).

Based on what you’ve said your defence is incredibly weak, taking it to court in that basis would be foolish, what would you say if asked what speed you were probably doing on a road you thought had a 60mph limit? If you are offered a fixed penalty it would be the same as you’d get for any speed from 46mph upwards anyway

Why did you not realise it was a 40 limit? If the signage is defective that may create a defence.


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Jlc
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 08:46
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That excess at court is 4 to 6 points. (5 most likely)

Should you lose you'll also have an income related fine (1 week's relevant earnings). Costs may well be above £600 and there's a 10% surcharge of the fine (min £30). You'll have to pay your own legal costs too.

Defending is fine if you actually have a defence - contesting because you don't like the impact is not wise. The officer will almost certainly be able to corroborate his opinion of a speeding car with the approved device.

You mention another car, was there?

As already mentioned that excess should see a fixed penalty offer (3 points £100) - if you know were speeding that will be the best you'll get.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 08:48


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
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Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Wickedzombieanno...
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 11:01
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 04:09) *
QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 03:01) *
Hi,

As you have read briefly I was pulled over by police and was shown a radar speed gun and it showed the numbers of 61mph and the officer said that was my speed. Ive had my license for a year but im new at driving and only been driving for 3 weeks or less. The zone that it said i was doing 61 mph was a 40pmh zone. I told the officer that wasnt the speed i was going. He said that it was. He had no video evidence or anything else except for the speed gun. I didnt once admit that i was guilty of speeding. The officer said i will recieve a letter within 6 months and i asked what the letter will entail and he told me most likely a fine and 3 points. I told him again i wasnt speeding and then he just told me to drive safe and went back into his car after he was done talking. Is having a speed gun as the only evidence in court a strong case as he could have measured someone else speeding other than me. And if i do go to court and lose the case will i get more points than the initial amount which was 3 and i already know if i go to court and i lose the case i will get a much higher fine but im willing to risk that and also im willing to pay for a good solicitor/lawyer to help me try win the case. Can anyone tell me all the consequences if i do not win the case because if i do lose the case it will
Be impossible for me to get insured and go to work as i work 45 minutes away in the car and it takes about 2 hours on public transport.

Others will comment but nothing you have said above suggests you have a defence.If you get a COFP ( CONDITIONAL OFFER OF A FIXED PENALTY) take it.
Check yiur policy to see when/if you need to tell your indurers about any speeding offences and remind uourself you are a " New Driver" and there are strictures in the first 2 years of passing your test.



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 08:22) *
Why do you think they need a video?

The evidence is that officer says he targeted your car and took a speed reading using an almost certainly approved device (that was almost certainly laser), at a speed you kind of admit is probably true as it’s the limit you thought applied.

3 points will not make it impossible for you to get insured (presumably in a years time anyway).

Based on what you’ve said your defence is incredibly weak, taking it to court in that basis would be foolish, what would you say if asked what speed you were probably doing on a road you thought had a 60mph limit? If you are offered a fixed penalty it would be the same as you’d get for any speed from 46mph upwards anyway

Why did you not realise it was a 40 limit? If the signage is defective that may create a defence.



QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 08:46) *
That excess at court is 4 to 6 points. (5 most likely)

Should you lose you'll also have an income related fine (1 week's relevant earnings). Costs may well be above £600 and there's a 10% surcharge of the fine (min £30). You'll have to pay your own legal costs too.

Defending is fine if you actually have a defence - contesting because you don't like the impact is not wise. The officer will almost certainly be able to corroborate his opinion of a speeding car with the approved device.

You mention another car, was there?

As already mentioned that excess should see a fixed penalty offer (3 points £100) - if you know were speeding that will be the best you'll get.






What do you mean why did i never realise it was a 60moh zone. I never once admitted to the officer that i was speeding. I said to him. ‘What was the motorcycle infront of me soeed doing as i dont think i was doing that speed’ and i kept reiterating that same statement and wouldnt get a proper reply. I said to him ‘how does anyone know whos vehicles speed you were measuring as you could have tagged on to someone elses car and pinned it on me’. There should be more evidence than a reading on a speed gun. There should be a vehicle registration attatched to that automatically like an anpr camera because how does the court know that the officer is telling the truth. Just because in uniform and trained doesnt mean hes always telling the truth as in this situation the officer I know was lying. Im sure it was the motorcycle ahead of me whom he tagged.


QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 08:46) *
That excess at court is 4 to 6 points. (5 most likely)

Should you lose you'll also have an income related fine (1 week's relevant earnings). Costs may well be above £600 and there's a 10% surcharge of the fine (min £30). You'll have to pay your own legal costs too.

Defending is fine if you actually have a defence - contesting because you don't like the impact is not wise. The officer will almost certainly be able to corroborate his opinion of a speeding car with the approved device.

You mention another car, was there?

As already mentioned that excess should see a fixed penalty offer (3 points £100) - if you know were speeding that will be the best you'll get.


So me trying to contest my innocence to the court and i now know that if i do then i will basicly be punished harder for that? How does that work. I understand it takes up the courts time but why not just charge for the time why would they make the punishment for what they think im guilty for even harsher? Im definetly going to get some legal advice about this but i was told to come on this website and get some more knowledge.

QUOTE (StuartBu @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 04:09) *
QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 03:01) *
Hi,

As you have read briefly I was pulled over by police and was shown a radar speed gun and it showed the numbers of 61mph and the officer said that was my speed. Ive had my license for a year but im new at driving and only been driving for 3 weeks or less. The zone that it said i was doing 61 mph was a 40pmh zone. I told the officer that wasnt the speed i was going. He said that it was. He had no video evidence or anything else except for the speed gun. I didnt once admit that i was guilty of speeding. The officer said i will recieve a letter within 6 months and i asked what the letter will entail and he told me most likely a fine and 3 points. I told him again i wasnt speeding and then he just told me to drive safe and went back into his car after he was done talking. Is having a speed gun as the only evidence in court a strong case as he could have measured someone else speeding other than me. And if i do go to court and lose the case will i get more points than the initial amount which was 3 and i already know if i go to court and i lose the case i will get a much higher fine but im willing to risk that and also im willing to pay for a good solicitor/lawyer to help me try win the case. Can anyone tell me all the consequences if i do not win the case because if i do lose the case it will
Be impossible for me to get insured and go to work as i work 45 minutes away in the car and it takes about 2 hours on public transport.

Others will comment but nothing you have said above suggests you have a defence.If you get a COFP ( CONDITIONAL OFFER OF A FIXED PENALTY) take it.
Check yiur policy to see when/if you need to tell your indurers about any speeding offences and remind uourself you are a " New Driver" and there are strictures in the first 2 years of passing your test.


What will the action be taken upon me most likely ? And also could you tell me what the best and worst case scenario is
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Jlc
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 11:45
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You have the best and worst case already.

A fixed penalty will likely be offered - it’s up to you whether you accept that or not.

The principle behind fixed penalties are to offer those who are prepared to resolve the matter without a prosecution a fixed outcome. (Otherwise full court sentencing applies)

Challenging at court (presuming England/wales) always has risk. If you are found guilty then you are liable for court and prosecution costs.

If the prosecution cannot prove their case then you will not be convicted.

If you go in stating the officer is lying you’ll get short shrift. He may have made a mistake though and this would be your route to defend if it was plausible - that is the wrong vehicle was pinged.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Wickedzombieanno...
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 13:22
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 11:45) *
You have the best and worst case already.

A fixed penalty will likely be offered - it’s up to you whether you accept that or not.

The principle behind fixed penalties are to offer those who are prepared to resolve the matter without a prosecution a fixed outcome. (Otherwise full court sentencing applies)

Challenging at court (presuming England/wales) always has risk. If you are found guilty then you are liable for court and prosecution costs.

If the prosecution cannot prove their case then you will not be convicted.

If you go in stating the officer is lying you’ll get short shrift. He may have made a mistake though and this would be your route to defend if it was plausible - that is the wrong vehicle was pinged.


Really and truly the only proof they have is the speed gun. What does my defence have to be for them not to prosecute me. WHat mistake could he have made for this to happen? What is short shrift? Its basically a done deal whether or not he has made a mostake. The court will mostly likely take his side either way. The accused is normally judged to be guilty and the accuser innocent. Arghh this is stressfull
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BaggieBoy
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 13:48
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So what speed do you think you were doing?

It also sounds like you got confrontational with the officer, never a good thing to do.
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Slapdash
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 14:25
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If the motorcycle was doing 61mph and you were doing 40 then they would have been going away from you at 21mph.

This is approximately 30 ft/second.

How long before you were stopped did the motorcycle overtake you ?

How well does this fit with the events ?

It is of course possible the officer was mistaken.
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NewJudge
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 14:40
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QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 13:22) *
Really and truly the only proof they have is the speed gun.

That's all they need, together with the officer's evidence that the device was an approved one and that it was operated in the correct manner. They will also probably produce the "money shot". That is, the photograph taken by the device with your vehicle in the cross-hairs. However, you cannot see any of this evidence unless and until the matter goes to court. What else do you think they need that they might not have?
QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 13:22) *
What does my defence have to be for them not to prosecute me.

The decision to prosecute you (that is, to have the matter heard in court) will come if you decline to accept the fixed penalty that will almost certainly be offered. Nothing you can do will prevent that as, by declining the fixed Penalty it is assumed that you are contesting the matter and contested matters can only be dealt with in court. They will provide evidence to the court as I outlined above. Without any input from you will almost certainly be convicted. To avoid this you will have to cast doubt on one or more aspects of the evidence that they rely on.
QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 13:22) *
WHat mistake could he have made for this to happen?

He would have to have operated the device incorrectly or perhaps targetted the wrong vehicle. If you want to defend the matter on such grounds you will almost certainly need an expert to assist you.
QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 13:22) *
What is short shrift?

"Short shrift" is an unfavourable, usually brusque response. So, if you approach the matter on the basis that you believe te officer was telling lies by accusing you of speeding it will not get you very far.
QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 13:22) *
Its basically a done deal whether or not he has made a mostake. The court will mostly likely take his side either way. The accused is normally judged to be guilty and the accuser innocent. Arghh this is stressfull

The court will judge the matter of the evidence put before them. The difficulty you are in is that the police will be able to present evidence to show that your speed was measured accurately and you will not.

Were you aware that you were travelling in a 40mph limit? There is a (very remote) possibility that the signage was deficient which may provide you with a defence. Finally, what speed do you believe you were doing (which is the first question you will be asked in court if you defend the matter by arguing about the speed alleged)?

One thing you do need to be aware of is that if you do end up with three points for this offence, any further offence which attracts points and which you commit before two years have elapsed since you passed your driving test will see your licence revoked. This means you will have to pass your test (both parts) again.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 14:42
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southpaw82
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 14:49
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It doesn’t sound like there will be a photo or video - sounds like a roadside stop.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 15:39
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QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 11:01) *
What do you mean why did i never realise it was a 60moh zone. I never once admitted to the officer that i was speeding. I said to him. ‘What was the motorcycle infront of me soeed doing as i dont think i was doing that speed’ and i kept reiterating that same statement and wouldnt get a proper reply. I said to him ‘how does anyone know whos vehicles speed you were measuring as you could have tagged on to someone elses car and pinned it on me’. There should be more evidence than a reading on a speed gun. There should be a vehicle registration attatched to that automatically like an anpr camera because how does the court know that the officer is telling the truth. Just because in uniform and trained doesnt mean hes always telling the truth as in this situation the officer I know was lying. Im sure it was the motorcycle ahead of me whom he tagged.

You were asked why you didn’t realise it was a 40, not why you didn’t realise it was a 60, and the answer is.....?

No-one said you admitted it, I wrote that the fact you were alleged to be doing what you thought was the speed limit is a tacit admission and relevant.

What speed someone else was doing isn’t at all relevant, it’s what speed the police can prove to a court beyond reasonable doubt you were doing that matters.

What you think the evidence should be isn’t relevant, its what the law and the courts think that matters, people were convicted of speeding long before photos and videos were available and the same principle exists.

You need to start focusing on the facts and the law rather than how you think it should have been reworded before you were caught. And you don’t appear to understand ANPR and that it would be irrelevant.


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Colin_S
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 08:33
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 08:22) *
.....on a road you thought had a 60mph limit? .....



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 15:39) *
You were asked why you didn’t realise it was a 40, not why you didn’t realise it was a 60, and the answer is.....?


Just to clear up some confusion I hope...

I can't see anything in the OP that suggests the poster thought the limit was 60.
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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 09:03
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QUOTE (Wickedzombieannonymous @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 13:22) *
Really and truly the only proof they have is the speed gun. What does my defence have to be for them not to prosecute me. WHat mistake could he have made for this to happen? What is short shrift? Its basically a done deal whether or not he has made a mostake. The court will mostly likely take his side either way. The accused is normally judged to be guilty and the accuser innocent. Arghh this is stressfull

You can assume the officer has been properly trained and has followed the proper procedure to use the speed gun, and if you challenge it in court the officer will come along and testify that he clocked your speed and the speed gun said you were doing 61. There is nothing to suggest the officer made a mistake other than your wishful thinking. If your only defence is "oh maybe the officer made a mistake" then you have no chance.

And if it goes to court, and the magistrates ask you how fast you were actually going, what are you going to say? Cos even if you were only doing 45, you're still guilty of exceeding the 40 mph limit so you'd still be guilty.

Of course, you could chose not to give evidence, but I don't see that as being a viable defence strategy either.


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The Rookie
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 10:37
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QUOTE (Colin_S @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 08:33) *
I can't see anything in the OP that suggests the poster thought the limit was 60.

Your right, not sure how I came to that conclusion.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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NewJudge
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 13:02
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 10:37) *
QUOTE (Colin_S @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 08:33) *
I can't see anything in the OP that suggests the poster thought the limit was 60.

Your right, not sure how I came to that conclusion.

Probably because in post #3 you asked the OP why he didn't realise it was a 40mph zone and in post #5 he replied "What do you mean why did i never realise it was a 60moh zone."
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