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PCN Code 21u - Parking in a suspended bay - CAMDEN
EVdriver
post Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 23:13
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Hi all, totally new here and posting my first message. If any mistakes please accept my apologies.

I would like to ask you for your assitance. On Sunday September 22 2019 at around 4 pm I parked my car allegedly in a suspend a pay and display bay to collect my daughter from her friend's flat for approximately 15 to 20 minutes. At the time I parked my car the yellow triangler board was showing absolutely no date/s or time about the parking bay that has been suspended or going to be suspended towards the road, also the fact that the bay was full of other parked cars, to me was indicative enough that either the suspension has been lifted or yet to be applied on the bay
However, Camden has uploaded some pics showing full details of the suspension.

Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

This post has been edited by EVdriver: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 23:36
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post Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 23:13
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stamfordman
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 07:45
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So you challenged the PCN? You are past the 14 days.

Post the PCN and your challenge if you did so.

So you checked the yellow sign carefully - is that the only bay sign in the bay?

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
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EVdriver
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 22:14
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yes, I,ve challenged the PCN and i was told its on hold at the moment..

i will try post the PCN but my challenge was basically on the same grounds what i've mendtion in my post above

The curious thing was that the bay which I used, the yellow triangler board (suspension notice) was showing absolutely no date/s or time about the parking bay that has been suspended or going to be suspended towards the road and the pcn was selectively issued for that bay only whereas all other cars along the same side were completely ignored for the entire road - I have photos showing this too.

This street is notorious for troublesome youth groups, I won’t be surprised to know if some youths had tampered and torn-away the white sheet off the suspension notice as I can clearly see in the pcn photos that the original sheet has been replaced.
I can only come to this conclusion that the pcn was issued whilst the Civil Enforcement Officer attended the bay to replace the tampered/damaged notice for that bay only therefore they were not attentive about any other bays along the street otherwise all the cars which were parked in the same suspended bays would have got the pcn.


This post has been edited by EVdriver: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 23:17
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 16:20
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Show us all the photos you took, and all the council photos. Use an external site like imigur.com to host the images.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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EVdriver
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 19:01
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As i said, the pcn was selectively issued for the bay i used only whereas all other cars along the same side were completely ignored for the entire road..see the photos attached below.

https://ibb.co/NrYJdR9
https://ibb.co/Q695L8L
https://ibb.co/VHWttjB


furthermore, the time-plate indicates that the bay was a paid for Mon - Firday parking bay and the pcn was issued on Sunday...

https://ibb.co/dGRkD8L


This post has been edited by EVdriver: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:17
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cp8759
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:15
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QUOTE (EVdriver @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:01) *
As i said, the pcn was selectively issued for the bay i used only whereas all other cars along the same side were completely ignored for the entire road..see the photos attached below.


furthermore, the time-plate indicates that the bay was a paid for Mon - Firday parking bay and the pcn was issued on Sunday...

That's wonderful but without the pictures we've asked for, we can't really help you.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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EVdriver
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:20
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Thank you for your letter received on 24/09/2019.

I understand that you are contesting the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) because you believed
no suspension was in operation, but I have decided to enforce the Notice.

Following receipt of your challenge I have reviewed the issuing of this PCN carefully. The Civil
Enforcement Officer (CEO) has recorded that your vehicle was parked in a paid for parking bay
that was temporarily part suspended. A warning notice was placed at the location, and was
affixed to the time plate which carries the normal bay controls and located within the
suspended portion of the paid for parking bay.

The Council has a duty to make drivers aware of any parking restrictions that are in operation
on street. This is done by way of street signs and road markings and in the case of
suspensions, by way of advance warning notices (which are large, yellow, three dimensional
signs). Once the warning signs are in place, it is the driver`s responsibility to ensure that their
vehicle is not parked within the suspended area.

Our suspension records indicate that an advance warning sign was placed in this location on
18 Sep 2019 at 04:41am prior to the start of the restrictions, and I believe that the warning
given in this instance was sufficient to inform drivers of the change in restrictions.

Please note suspensions and the warning notices advising of the additional restrictions are all
signed accordingly. The CEO`s notes indicate that the vehicle was parked in a suspended bay
within proximity of the time-plate indicating that the whole paid for parking bay (location number
13562) was suspended from Thursday 19 Sep 2019 to Tuesday 24 Sep 2019 inclusive, 24
hours a day for HS2 works. When a bay is suspended it is enforced to ensure that the area is
kept clear for the purpose of the suspension. The CEO records your vehicle parked within this
paid for parking bay and therefore within the suspension.

While I acknowledge that you believed no suspension was in operation, when leaving your
vehicle it is your responsibility as the driver to always check the restrictions in the bay in which
you are parked, including any upcoming suspensions, by consulting the relevant signs. I note
your comments regarding no dates or times being displayed on the suspension signage,
however I have reviewed the CEOs photographs and the suspension signage appears to be
displayed accurately with the restrictions visible on the yellow signage. As such I am satisfied
on this occasion that the signage in the location was sufficient to inform drivers that parking
was not permitted.

Based on the above, and the evidence supplied by the CEO, I am satisfied that the PCN has
been correctly issued.

________________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________

Below are some of the pics i used for contesting my pcn. Like i said before, the yellow triangler board (suspension notice) was showing absolutely no date/s or time about the parking bay that has been suspended or going to be suspended towards the road and the pcn was selectively issued for that bay only whereas all other cars along the same side were completely ignored for the entire road
If someone had tampered and torn-away the white sheet off the suspension notice becasue if you look carefully, you'll see that in the pcn photos I have posted previously that the original sheet has been replaced.
I can only come to this conclusion that the pcn was issued whilst the Civil Enforcement Officer attended the bay to replace the tampered/damaged notice for that bay only therefore they were not attentive about any other bays along the street otherwise all the cars which were parked in the same suspended bays would have got the pcn.

https://ibb.co/k8DS650
https://ibb.co/tKgTW8T
https://ibb.co/z46W9Mk
https://ibb.co/hWMxSnk



This post has been edited by EVdriver: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 21:04
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cp8759
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:36
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I repeat that without the pictures we've asked for, we can't really help you. I'm not sure what else you expect, either you show us the evidence that we're dealing with or you're frankly just wasting time.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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EVdriver
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 21:07
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cp8759 thanks for your swift response, I think I have now posted everything you’ve asked for please let me know if otherwise.

Pics taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer below.

https://ibb.co/30JBrsK
https://ibb.co/DMsHT9G
https://ibb.co/ssSrvvk
https://ibb.co/ydCq30s



Cheers.

This post has been edited by EVdriver: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 21:28
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cp8759
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 21:14
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Well that's a start but what we really need are the CEO photos, as that is the evidence that the council will use against you.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 08:31
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The council's photos support their case that the suspension was signed as required.

To be frank, the OP's argument seems to be one of semantics i.e. although the sign was there, it was orientated towards the footway and not the carriageway.

Personally, I think that's safer anyway and I'm not aware of any mandatory requirement to do otherwise.

If the OP is saying that there was no information which conveys the suspension displayed anywhere on the post when they parked, then say so clearly. We don't need to speculate how this arose, this would be the OP's argument.

Unfortunately, the adjudicator, not being Solomon, would be faced with clear and compelling evidence to the contrary and IMO would likely conclude the accordingly.
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 09:13
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+1

My challenge on this one would be to get hold of the Council's noise and environmental protocols (usually on their website) and contend that they prohibit "Works" on a Sunday. Ergo the reason for the suspension cannot be sustained.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 10:00
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.???

Don't mistake the reason for suspension with activity. The contractor could require space to store equipment, and whether this was evident at the time of the OP parking is not the issue. And IMO, such an approach, if taken to adjudication, we be verging on frivolous with the possible prescribed consequences.
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 10:29
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@ hca

I have had success with this ground in Westminster cases and also a Camden case IIRC so I don't agree that my suggestion is frivolous in any respect. If the Council want to describe the reason for the suspension in such generic terms they cannot have the freedom you suggest and perhaps their reason for suspension is frivolous.

So if HS2 want to park vehicles there-- can they? Parking is suspended. If HS2 want to drop a load of materials there on a Sunday can they?

The key for me is the word "works".

The Camden website indicates "No noisy work should take place on Sundays".

If the OP still wishes to continue I would give it a go.

Mick


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cp8759
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 17:33
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On the evidence available, I would pay the discount. The adjudicator is not going to believe that the sign was not showing any times or dated simply on the basis of the OP's word.

I appreciate Mick's point, but the Camden authorisation for the sign does not mandate any reason at all, it's simply information that "may" be shown.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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EVdriver
post Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 21:28
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@hcandersen - What I was saying, although the yellow triangler board was there but I did not see any date/s or time about the parking bay that has been suspended or going to be suspended…

However, if this was orientated towards the footway and not the carriageway than this is something I failed to check…
PS: the CEO photo of parking suspension doesn’t mention no waiting at any time…

To my knowledge the case is currently on hold, so I am still waiting for a response…
Thank you for your time and support in this matter.


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EVdriver
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 01:59
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Guys just an update on my case. Just so you know I last called Camden 7th November for an update and i was informed by a customer service officer that my apple was put on hold again so until I get a response the charge will stand at £65 and will not go up until I get a response and I’ll have further 14 days decide or pay the but unfortunately this was not the case as i received this response below from Camden next day (on 8th Nov), there was no 14 days and the charge also increased to £135!


This was the receipt of my last letter to Camden providig them some additional info....


Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2019 at 11:06 PM
From: no-reply@camden.gov.uk
Subject: Camden Council – Your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN)



Thank you for submitting a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) Challenge.

Please note that your challenge has been received and we aim to respond within 10 working days.

If you have recently received a Penalty Charge Notice, Enforcement Notice or Notice to Owner in the post, the ticket has been placed on hold. This means that the PCN should not progress to the next stage of enforcement until we have responded to your challenge.

We have attached a PDF document containing your submission along with all the supporting files you may have uploaded.

If you would like any further details regarding parking or parking enforcement in Camden please visit our website at camden.gov.uk/parking/

Yours sincerely,

Parking Operations

________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________



Thank you for your letter received on 22/10/2019.

I understand you wish to contest this Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) further as you believe no
dates or times were displayed on the suspension signage. I can confirm that the CEO
photographs were taken when the PCN issued, and these images clearly demonstrate that the
relevant suspension times were stipulated on the suspension sign. Given this, I do uphold my
colleague's previous decision as, having reviewed their letter, the evidence and your appeals, I
am satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued.

Whilst I understand that you may have observed other vehicles parked, as I am sure you can
appreciate, I am unable to comment on separate cases where I have no further information.
However, rest assured, I have considered the issuance of this PCN carefully. Due to the
reasons stated, I am satisfied that your vehicle was parked in contravention.
Should you wish to contest this PCN further, please await the Notice to Owner (NTO)
document. This will be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle and will allow you to make
formal representations against the charge. More information concerning this is listed below.
The charge now stands at £130.00. You can pay this charge online at camden.gov.uk/pay or
you can contact our 24 hour automated payment line on 020 7974 6104.

If you choose not to make payment we will send the registered keeper of the vehicle a NTO.
This statutory document explains the grounds on which the registered keeper of the vehicle
can make formal representations against the issuing of the PCN. I must make clear that the
discount period for payment will have expired by the time a Notice to Owner is issued, and the
charge will have reverted to the £130.00.



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hcandersen
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 10:37
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OP, you keep transposing letters. Pl don't because, among other matters, you do not post complete details, particularly dates.

Pl look at the FAQs to see how to host documents externally and post links here.

We just need a simple timeline:
PCN dated ******
Challenge submitted: *****
Response dated **** received *******
This extended the discount until: ******* (assumption because what you posted omits any reference to the discount)
'some additional info....' sent by **** on ****

It would seem that your 'additional info' stepped outside the prescribed procedure and caused the (probable) extended discount to lapse: there is no requirement for them to continue responding to (and further extending the discount period) 'challenges' which amount to no more than disagreement with their initial decision.

Are you the registered keeper with up to date details at DVLA?
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EVdriver
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 14:31
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@hcandersen - Please accept my apologies for the inconvenience you may have experienced with my post, here is the info you’ve asked for.

PCN dated: Sunday 22nd September 2019
https://ibb.co/xCY6dfs
Challenge submitted: Monday, September 23, 2019 at 12:23 AM
Response dated: 14 October 2019 received 15 October 2019
This extended the discount until: 14 days from the date of Response (14 October 2019)
Further info submitted online on: 20/10/2019 at 11:06 PM - Receive this email below on the same day.
_________________________________________________________________________
Thank you for submitting a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) Challenge.

Please note that your challenge has been received and we aim to respond within 10 working days.

If you have recently received a Penalty Charge Notice, Enforcement Notice or Notice to Owner in the post, the ticket has been placed on hold. This means that the PCN should not progress to the next stage of enforcement until we have responded to your challenge.

We have attached a PDF document containing your submission along with all the supporting files you may have uploaded.

If you would like any further details regarding parking or parking enforcement in Camden please visit our website at camden.gov.uk/parking/

Yours sincerely,

Parking Operations
________________________________________________________________________________
______________________

Response to above (Further info - sent on 20/10/2019 ) received on: 08 November 2019 (see Post #17)

However, I called Camden on 7th November for an update and i was informed by a customer service officer that my appeal was still on hold so until I get a response the charge will stand at £65. They’ve also confirmed that the charge will not go up until I get a response and I’ll have further 14 days to decide how I wish to proceed but unfortunately this was not the case as the response dated 08 November 2019, there was no 14 days and the charge also increased to £135 ☹

Yes, I am the registered keeper with up to date details at DVLA.

This post has been edited by EVdriver: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 14:41
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 21:01
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EVdriver let me be blunt: unless you post the actual document we've asked for, it is unlikely anyone will bother helping you. We don't ask for fun or to be nosy, we just know what to look for while you don't (otherwise you wouldn't be here). Just redact your name and address and show us the paperwork, you can easily confirm that this is what happens in every other thread on here.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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