parking ticket for parking in space on the road where I live |
parking ticket for parking in space on the road where I live |
Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:44
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 7 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,614 |
I had some builders doing work on the house I live in, so moved my car into a parking space on the same road. Unfortuntaneately, it says "permit holders only 11am - noon' I had my car parked there during that time, so received a ticket.
I am absolutely furious with myself that this could happen. Think the discounted period runs out tomorrow (Friday) so it would be great to hear from someone soon. Hopefully, there is something that can be done? Thanks |
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Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:44
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Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:55
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
PCN time 11.09 am so maybe a grace period argument.
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Guest_Bogsy_* |
Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:00
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#3
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Guests |
As you did not display a permit and as no exempted activity appears to apply I recommend paying the discount now. I suggest buying a permit or at least some visitor permits to avoid the same happening again.
PCN time 11.09 am so maybe a grace period argument. Good valid point. I don't see a contravention time only an observation time that does not allow for the statutory 10 min grace period. |
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Guest_Bogsy_* |
Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:12
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#4
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Guests |
I'd appeal as vigilant Stamfordman provides a solid argument. At 11:09 the bay had not yet been controlled for 10 mins. You can use Westminster's web page to support your claim to 10 mins grace
https://www.westminster.gov.uk/deregulation...ing-enforcement As a secondary point argue that the PCN fails to state a contravention time as required by the schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3483/schedule/made The contravention time angle can be argued using the following text Paragraph 1(d) of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 advises that a PCN must contain; (d) the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred. While the Secretary of State's statutory guidance to local authorities advises; The information that a PCN must contain is set out in the Regulations. It is recommended that the PCN also gives: • vehicle make and colour (if evident); • detailed location of vehicle (full street name); • the contravention code; • observation start and finish times; • PCN number (all PCNs should be uniquely identifiable); • CEO’s identification number; and • the vehicle’s tax disc number and expiry date. Considering the above it is clear that a distinction is made between what is the contravention time and what is observation time. The regulations advise that the PCN must contain the contravention time while the Secretary of State’s guidance allows an observation time to be stated but it is not a must. So there is a difference and these two timings are clearly meant to be independent. The PCN served only gives a "seen" observation time and it does not advise at what time the contravention is deemed to have actually occurred in the manner the law requires. This failure is a procedural impropriety and provides legitimate grounds for cancelling the penalty. This post has been edited by Bogsy: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:31 |
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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:42
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
10 minute period applies.
Council will likely say that as the bay restriction was not in operation until 11 it does not count. The law does not see it that way, you were lawfully parked in a designated parking place so must be given the 10 minutes |
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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 10:14
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
The PCN served only gives a "seen" observation time and it does not advise at what time the contravention is deemed to have actually occurred in the manner the law requires. This failure is a procedural impropriety and provides legitimate grounds for cancelling the penalty. Indeed - I can't see how the council can say there was a contravention in a bay that has timed restrictions without a PCN time. I suspect though there is default position on the end of the obvs time that would persuade an adjudicator. |
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Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 20:26
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 7 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,614 |
thank you all for your prompt feedback. I will give it a go.
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Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 13:13
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,319 |
Westminster's web site says:
"The 10 minute grace period does not apply in the following instances: anywhere outside of a parking bay, for example on yellow lines, loading bans, footway, when double parked etc. where a vehicle is parked in a permitted parking bay during controlled hours without permission, without a permit or without having made payment (beyond the first 10 minutes of control)" (my emphasis). Since the 10 minutes of control expires at 11.10am, the CEO presumably observed until 11.09am and then proceeded to issue PCN assuming it would take them the final minute to do so. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the time of the alleged contravention does not appear on the PCN and IMO it fails on this alone. |
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Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 16:22
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
Westminster's web site says: "The 10 minute grace period does not apply in the following instances: anywhere outside of a parking bay, for example on yellow lines, loading bans, footway, when double parked etc. where a vehicle is parked in a permitted parking bay during controlled hours without permission, without a permit or without having made payment (beyond the first 10 minutes of control)" (my emphasis). Since the 10 minutes of control expires at 11.10am, the CEO presumably observed until 11.09am and then proceeded to issue PCN assuming it would take them the final minute to do so. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the time of the alleged contravention does not appear on the PCN and IMO it fails on this alone. I agree, but why quote Westminster website for a PCN issued by Harrow? |
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Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 17:23
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Westminster's web site says: "The 10 minute grace period does not apply in the following instances: anywhere outside of a parking bay, for example on yellow lines, loading bans, footway, when double parked etc. where a vehicle is parked in a permitted parking bay during controlled hours without permission, without a permit or without having made payment (beyond the first 10 minutes of control)" (my emphasis). Since the 10 minutes of control expires at 11.10am, the CEO presumably observed until 11.09am and then proceeded to issue PCN assuming it would take them the final minute to do so. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the time of the alleged contravention does not appear on the PCN and IMO it fails on this alone. I agree, but why quote Westminster website for a PCN issued by Harrow? Mainly I suspect because Westminster actually outline the 10 minute rule correctly. From OPs point of view, simply saying that the PCN was served earlier then allowed considering that he was lawfully parked within a designated parking bay and had not been in contravention for the 10 minutes that the law requires prior to the service of the PCN. That if they are in any doubt they must refer to their legal team with reference to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015 (Number 561) For OP's ref http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...gulation/2/made |
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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 21:37
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 7 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,614 |
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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 21:46
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
God you knew why they gave you a PCN, but they do not seem to know why they shouldn't You can add fail to consider to your reps against NTO
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 22:02
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,064 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
You post their reply but not your challenge!
I appealed based on the Westminster/ 10-minute waiting notion is no good to us, we need evidence in the form of your challenge, not a precis. |
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Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:41
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 7 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,614 |
God you knew why they gave you a PCN, but they do not seem to know why they shouldn't You can add fail to consider to your reps against NTO You post their reply but not your challenge! I appealed based on the Westminster/ 10-minute waiting notion is no good to us, we need evidence in the form of your challenge, not a precis. Hi guys, This is what I wrote: To Whom It May Concern: I am writing to appeal against this PCN. I live at xxxx and I am currently having a back extension built by a building company. I had only moved my car from just after 11am for under 10 minutes to allow for a builder's delivery to be made. The law states a person can lawfully park in a designated parking place for 10 minutes. At 11:09 the bay had not yet been controlled for 10 mins. Westminster's web page below supports the 10 mins grace https://www.westminster.gov.uk/deregulation...ing-enforcement As a secondary point, the PCN fails to state a contravention time as required by the schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3483/schedule/made Paragraph 1(d) of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 advises that a PCN must contain; (d) the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred. While the Secretary of State's statutory guidance to local authorities advises; The information that a PCN must contain is set out in the Regulations. It is recommended that the PCN also gives: o vehicle make and colour (if evident); o detailed location of vehicle (full street name); o the contravention code; o observation start and finish times; o PCN number (all PCNs should be uniquely identifiable); o CEO's identification number; and o the vehicle's tax disc number and expiry date. Considering the above, it is clear that a distinction is made between what is the contravention time and what is observation time. The regulations advise that the PCN must contain the contravention time while the Secretary of State's guidance allows an observation time to be stated but it is not a must. So there is a difference and these two timings are clearly meant to be independent. The PCN served only gives a "seen" observation time and it does not advise at what time the contravention is deemed to have actually occurred in the manner the law requires. This failure is a procedural impropriety and provides legitimate grounds for cancelling the penalty. Based on the above, I except this PCN to be cancelled. Thanks for your understanding. |
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Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:59
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
............I had only moved my car from just after 11am for under 10 minutes to allow for a builder's delivery to be made. ............ AARGHH You lined up the barrel with your foot and pulled the trigger !!!!!!! 10 minute grace applies if, that is IF, the vehicle is legitimately parked in a designated bay BEFORE the restriction kicks in. You very kindly told them all they need to know to be able to justify ignoring the grace period. Parked just before, even at 10.59 and the period applies. Park just after, even at 11 and it doesn't. |
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Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 21:50
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 7 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,614 |
............I had only moved my car from just after 11am for under 10 minutes to allow for a builder's delivery to be made. ............ AARGHH You lined up the barrel with your foot and pulled the trigger !!!!!!! 10 minute grace applies if, that is IF, the vehicle is legitimately parked in a designated bay BEFORE the restriction kicks in. You very kindly told them all they need to know to be able to justify ignoring the grace period. Parked just before, even at 10.59 and the period applies. Park just after, even at 11 and it doesn't. Is there anyway I can come back from that...as I didn't know I had to say 10:59. Can I just say it now? |
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Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 22:20
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Anything said now that corrects "just after 11" has no credibility.
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Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 18:12
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 7 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,614 |
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Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 18:37
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
When did you actually park there? As you're in for the full £110 you can take this to the tribunal but you'll have to tell the truth.
They didn't address the 10 min rule in their challenge rejection. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 19:19 |
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Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 11:54
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 107 Joined: 7 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,614 |
When did you actually park there? As you're in for the full £110 you can take this to the tribunal but you'll have to tell the truth. They didn't address the 10 min rule in their challenge rejection. Honestly, I had parked there before 11am as I had to move my car for the builders. I live on the same road. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 09:26 |