PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

parking ticket for parking in space on the road where I live
challenge_cheate...
post Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:44
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 107
Joined: 7 Aug 2010
Member No.: 39,614



I had some builders doing work on the house I live in, so moved my car into a parking space on the same road. Unfortuntaneately, it says "permit holders only 11am - noon' I had my car parked there during that time, so received a ticket.

I am absolutely furious with myself that this could happen. Think the discounted period runs out tomorrow (Friday) so it would be great to hear from someone soon.

Hopefully, there is something that can be done?

Thanks








Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:44
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:55
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



PCN time 11.09 am so maybe a grace period argument.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Bogsy_*
post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:00
Post #3





Guests






As you did not display a permit and as no exempted activity appears to apply I recommend paying the discount now. I suggest buying a permit or at least some visitor permits to avoid the same happening again.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:55) *
PCN time 11.09 am so maybe a grace period argument.


Good valid point. I don't see a contravention time only an observation time that does not allow for the statutory 10 min grace period.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Bogsy_*
post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:12
Post #4





Guests






I'd appeal as vigilant Stamfordman provides a solid argument. At 11:09 the bay had not yet been controlled for 10 mins. You can use Westminster's web page to support your claim to 10 mins grace

https://www.westminster.gov.uk/deregulation...ing-enforcement

As a secondary point argue that the PCN fails to state a contravention time as required by the schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3483/schedule/made

The contravention time angle can be argued using the following text

Paragraph 1(d) of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 advises that a PCN must contain;

(d) the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred.

While the Secretary of State's statutory guidance to local authorities advises;

The information that a PCN must contain is set
out in the Regulations. It is recommended that the PCN also gives:
• vehicle make and colour (if evident);
• detailed location of vehicle (full street name);
• the contravention code;
• observation start and finish times;
• PCN number (all PCNs should be uniquely identifiable);
• CEO’s identification number; and
• the vehicle’s tax disc number and expiry date.

Considering the above it is clear that a distinction is made between what is the contravention time and what is observation time. The regulations advise that the PCN must contain the contravention time while the Secretary of State’s guidance allows an observation time to be stated but it is not a must. So there is a difference and these two timings are clearly meant to be independent.

The PCN served only gives a "seen" observation time and it does not advise at what time the contravention is deemed to have actually occurred in the manner the law requires. This failure is a procedural impropriety and provides legitimate grounds for cancelling the penalty.

This post has been edited by Bogsy: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:31
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:42
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



10 minute period applies.
Council will likely say that as the bay restriction was not in operation until 11 it does not count.
The law does not see it that way, you were lawfully parked in a designated parking place so must be given the 10 minutes
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 10:14
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (Bogsy @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:12) *
The PCN served only gives a "seen" observation time and it does not advise at what time the contravention is deemed to have actually occurred in the manner the law requires. This failure is a procedural impropriety and provides legitimate grounds for cancelling the penalty.



Indeed - I can't see how the council can say there was a contravention in a bay that has timed restrictions without a PCN time.

I suspect though there is default position on the end of the obvs time that would persuade an adjudicator.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
challenge_cheate...
post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 20:26
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 107
Joined: 7 Aug 2010
Member No.: 39,614



thank you all for your prompt feedback. I will give it a go.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
spaceman
post Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 13:13
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 934
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,319



Westminster's web site says:

"The 10 minute grace period does not apply in the following instances:

anywhere outside of a parking bay, for example on yellow lines, loading bans, footway, when double parked etc.

where a vehicle is parked in a permitted parking bay during controlled hours without permission, without a permit or without having made payment (beyond the first 10 minutes of control)" (my emphasis).

Since the 10 minutes of control expires at 11.10am, the CEO presumably observed until 11.09am and then proceeded to issue PCN assuming it would take them the final minute to do so. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the time of the alleged contravention does not appear on the PCN and IMO it fails on this alone.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DastardlyDick
post Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 16:22
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,860
Joined: 12 May 2012
Member No.: 54,871



QUOTE (spaceman @ Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 13:13) *
Westminster's web site says:

"The 10 minute grace period does not apply in the following instances:

anywhere outside of a parking bay, for example on yellow lines, loading bans, footway, when double parked etc.

where a vehicle is parked in a permitted parking bay during controlled hours without permission, without a permit or without having made payment (beyond the first 10 minutes of control)" (my emphasis).

Since the 10 minutes of control expires at 11.10am, the CEO presumably observed until 11.09am and then proceeded to issue PCN assuming it would take them the final minute to do so. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the time of the alleged contravention does not appear on the PCN and IMO it fails on this alone.


I agree, but why quote Westminster website for a PCN issued by Harrow?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 17:23
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 16:22) *
QUOTE (spaceman @ Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 13:13) *
Westminster's web site says:

"The 10 minute grace period does not apply in the following instances:

anywhere outside of a parking bay, for example on yellow lines, loading bans, footway, when double parked etc.

where a vehicle is parked in a permitted parking bay during controlled hours without permission, without a permit or without having made payment (beyond the first 10 minutes of control)" (my emphasis).

Since the 10 minutes of control expires at 11.10am, the CEO presumably observed until 11.09am and then proceeded to issue PCN assuming it would take them the final minute to do so. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the time of the alleged contravention does not appear on the PCN and IMO it fails on this alone.


I agree, but why quote Westminster website for a PCN issued by Harrow?


Mainly I suspect because Westminster actually outline the 10 minute rule correctly.

From OPs point of view, simply saying that the PCN was served earlier then allowed considering that he was lawfully parked within a designated parking bay and had not been in contravention for the 10 minutes that the law requires prior to the service of the PCN.
That if they are in any doubt they must refer to their legal team with reference to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015 (Number 561)

For OP's ref
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...gulation/2/made
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
challenge_cheate...
post Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 21:37
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 107
Joined: 7 Aug 2010
Member No.: 39,614



Thanks Guys...

I appealed based on the Westminster/ 10-minute waiting notion and they rejected it. Please see the response below.





Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 21:46
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



God you knew why they gave you a PCN, but they do not seem to know why they shouldn't You can add fail to consider to your reps against NTO


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 22:02
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,064
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



You post their reply but not your challenge!

I appealed based on the Westminster/ 10-minute waiting notion is no good to us, we need evidence in the form of your challenge, not a precis.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
challenge_cheate...
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:41
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 107
Joined: 7 Aug 2010
Member No.: 39,614



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 21:46) *
God you knew why they gave you a PCN, but they do not seem to know why they shouldn't You can add fail to consider to your reps against NTO



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 22:02) *
You post their reply but not your challenge!

I appealed based on the Westminster/ 10-minute waiting notion is no good to us, we need evidence in the form of your challenge, not a precis.


Hi guys,

This is what I wrote:

To Whom It May Concern:

I am writing to appeal against this PCN. I live at xxxx and I am currently having a back extension built by a building company. I had only moved my car from just after 11am for under 10 minutes to allow for a builder's delivery to be made.

The law states a person can lawfully park in a designated parking place for 10 minutes. At 11:09 the bay had not yet been controlled for 10 mins.

Westminster's web page below supports the 10 mins grace

https://www.westminster.gov.uk/deregulation...ing-enforcement

As a secondary point, the PCN fails to state a contravention time as required by the schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3483/schedule/made

Paragraph 1(d) of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 advises that a PCN must contain;

(d) the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred.

While the Secretary of State's statutory guidance to local authorities advises;

The information that a PCN must contain is set
out in the Regulations. It is recommended that the PCN also gives:
o vehicle make and colour (if evident);
o detailed location of vehicle (full street name);
o the contravention code;
o observation start and finish times;
o PCN number (all PCNs should be uniquely identifiable);
o CEO's identification number; and
o the vehicle's tax disc number and expiry date.

Considering the above, it is clear that a distinction is made between what is the contravention time and what is observation time. The regulations advise that the PCN must contain the contravention time while the Secretary of State's guidance allows an observation time to be stated but it is not a must. So there is a difference and these two timings are clearly meant to be independent.

The PCN served only gives a "seen" observation time and it does not advise at what time the contravention is deemed to have actually occurred in the manner the law requires. This failure is a procedural impropriety and provides legitimate grounds for cancelling the penalty.

Based on the above, I except this PCN to be cancelled.

Thanks for your understanding.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:59
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (challenge_cheaters @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:41) *
............I had only moved my car from just after 11am for under 10 minutes to allow for a builder's delivery to be made.
............



AARGHH
You lined up the barrel with your foot and pulled the trigger !!!!!!!

10 minute grace applies if, that is IF, the vehicle is legitimately parked in a designated bay BEFORE the restriction kicks in.
You very kindly told them all they need to know to be able to justify ignoring the grace period.
Parked just before, even at 10.59 and the period applies.
Park just after, even at 11 and it doesn't.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
challenge_cheate...
post Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 21:50
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 107
Joined: 7 Aug 2010
Member No.: 39,614



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:59) *
QUOTE (challenge_cheaters @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:41) *
............I had only moved my car from just after 11am for under 10 minutes to allow for a builder's delivery to be made.
............



AARGHH
You lined up the barrel with your foot and pulled the trigger !!!!!!!

10 minute grace applies if, that is IF, the vehicle is legitimately parked in a designated bay BEFORE the restriction kicks in.
You very kindly told them all they need to know to be able to justify ignoring the grace period.
Parked just before, even at 10.59 and the period applies.
Park just after, even at 11 and it doesn't.



Is there anyway I can come back from that...as I didn't know I had to say 10:59. Can I just say it now?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 22:20
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Anything said now that corrects "just after 11" has no credibility.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
challenge_cheate...
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 18:12
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 107
Joined: 7 Aug 2010
Member No.: 39,614



Can anyone please advise me on what I should/ can do?

Below is the latest letter that they sent me







Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 18:37
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



When did you actually park there? As you're in for the full £110 you can take this to the tribunal but you'll have to tell the truth.

They didn't address the 10 min rule in their challenge rejection.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 19:19
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
challenge_cheate...
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 11:54
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 107
Joined: 7 Aug 2010
Member No.: 39,614



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 17 Feb 2018 - 18:37) *
When did you actually park there? As you're in for the full £110 you can take this to the tribunal but you'll have to tell the truth.

They didn't address the 10 min rule in their challenge rejection.


Honestly, I had parked there before 11am as I had to move my car for the builders. I live on the same road.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 09:26
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here