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Bath RUH Hospital - Parking Eye - too long in 'Drop off area'.
publicenemyno1
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 13:22
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Received the following today.

To the drivers surprise - who will remain nameless - what was once just a scruffy, unmarked gravel patch of land by the boiler house is now apparently a 'waiting area', this area is located far from the public car parks. There are no spaces or yellow lines marked, though you would still argue it is a parking 'bay', level with and parallel to the service road. Despite what the map states, the whole area does not consist of marked disabled bays.

On this basis, as the keeper I fully expect to receive another letter on Monday for the parking the next day, Sunday.

I replied by letter, perhaps hastily, using the exact template found here - https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/appeal-letter/ - note I haven't linked directly as it is a Word document and I don't want to force everyone to download it without realising.

Foolishly, I did not date the letter, nor get a posting receipt - as I say, less haste perhaps next time (but still better than sending off an emotionally charged reply revealing the driver, I guess, which is what most of my friends seem to do sad.gif ).

If I have made a mistake, I see no reason why I can't send a second letter with a date and/or PoP. Or, is it worth just using their online appeals submission - I'm guessing it is just a 'free text' affair not a load of tricksy questions.

Obviously, I have had a read-around here, and can't see much different advice to what I've done, in terms of what to say, and what not to say.

I have previously batted off a few 'incompetents' (the likes of CEL) who folded at the first letter; and although PE are no less scummy, they do feel a whole new league of corporate and well organised bullies.
I am guessing the letter above (in fact, any letter) will be rejected and POPLA will be the next stop. I was surprised not to see so many PE threads on here?

The driver will be going to the hospital today, and will take photographs. If I've missed anything out, apologies, things are a bit hectic right now. So please, just ask smile.gif

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post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 13:22
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 16:51
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QUOTE
I replied by letter, perhaps hastily, using the exact template found here - https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/appeal-letter/ - note I haven't linked directly as it is a Word document and I don't want to force everyone to download it without realising.

Do not bother with ANY advice or info on the ParkingCowboys website. It is of no help, IMHO.

QUOTE
I did not date the letter, nor get a posting receipt
You posted a LETTER snail mail to Parking Eyes black hole of an office, instead of appealing online? Did you get a reply, how long ago did you post that pointless template?

Appeal online as registered keeper, instead, not using that template. Use the one in the MSE NEWBIES thread instead.

Meanwhile, take some photos of the unmarked gravel patch of land by the boiler house and any signs there. Is it a DROP OFF are as the PCN says on the back? Get proof that it is not.

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publicenemyno1
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:02
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:51) *
QUOTE
I replied by letter, perhaps hastily, using the exact template found here - https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/appeal-letter/ - note I haven't linked directly as it is a Word document and I don't want to force everyone to download it without realising.

Do not bother with ANY advice or info on the ParkingCowboys website. It is of no help, IMHO.

QUOTE
I did not date the letter, nor get a posting receipt
You posted a LETTER snail mail to Parking Eyes black hole of an office, instead of appealing online? Did you get a reply, how long ago did you post that pointless template?

Appeal online as registered keeper, instead, not using that template. Use the one in the MSE NEWBIES thread instead.

Meanwhile, take some photos of the unmarked gravel patch of land by the boiler house and any signs there. Is it a DROP OFF are as the PCN says on the back? Get proof that it is not.


I only got the letter today, the 28th April 2018, so I only replied (and posted it) today. I don't pay for stamps so no real loss smile.gif

(I did suspect that the PCB website was a bit crap, although I didn't think the letter was that different to other advice. But that's why I came here afterwards...)

Have now found the MSE forum and sent that blue box version online via parkingeye.com, though I have to say the second half seems really like it belongs
on an episode of 'That's Life'. But hey, it's done. Perhaps it also serves as a coda, of sorts.

Thanks for the advice.

This post has been edited by publicenemyno1: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:02
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:05
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Let's just say I have valid concerns about that website and the advice there, and people should steer clear, IMHO.

QUOTE
Have now found the MSE forum and sent that blue box version online via parkingeye.com, though I have to say the second half seems really like it belongs on an episode of 'That's Life'. But hey, it's done. Perhaps it also serves as a coda, of sorts
.Careful, I am Coupon-mad over there and I wrote that appeal, LOL!






Now go and get your photos because you will need them for POPLA stage within a couple of weeks or so.
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publicenemyno1
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:17
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 18:05) *
Let's just say I have valid concerns about that website and the advice there, and people should steer clear, IMHO.

QUOTE
Have now found the MSE forum and sent that blue box version online via parkingeye.com, though I have to say the second half seems really like it belongs on an episode of 'That's Life'. But hey, it's done. Perhaps it also serves as a coda, of sorts
.Careful, I am Coupon-mad over there and I wrote that appeal, LOL!






Now go and get your photos because you will need them for POPLA stage within a couple of weeks or so.


I guessed that, I meant from the point of view that given the reputation of PE I doubt it will actually get read TBH!
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 17:18
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If you hadn't also appealed online, I expect your letter would have been lost in the system. At least now, you have appealed and are halfway to POPLA.
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publicenemyno1
post Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 13:08
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 28 Apr 2018 - 18:18) *
If you hadn't also appealed online, I expect your letter would have been lost in the system. At least now, you have appealed and are halfway to POPLA.


No doubt! I was wary of the online system in case it had forced questions that didn't allow you to put what you wanted.

[such as 'Are you NOT, not, not the driver of this vehicle?' Yes/No (n.b please give the opposite answer to the truth)]

As it happens I put a bit on the bottom of the free stating I didn't, in fact, agree with not submitting any further evidence as I see fit, contrary to the 'terms' I was forced to accept in order to file.

But anyway, herewith the pictures...

The driver entered the site by car at Entrance C (see the map below or full (unmarked) PDF version here - http://www.ruh.nhs.uk/finding/documents/RU...ectory_map.pdf)

Attached Image


Confusingly, the first sign you see is about a ten minute drop off zone, with bays marked (but not signed) for 'parent and child'. I assume this is for 'benefit' of the adjacent, non-hospital nursery, which isn't anything
to do with the hospital itself. This is point 1 on the map. There are, to the drivers knowledge, NO other 'headline' signs before this e.g. 'PRIVATE LAND', 'ANPR CONTROLLED CAR PARK' etc... Just an RUH one with very few word other than 'hospital' and 'Bath'.



Then, and only then, does the driver see a more 'generic' sign at point 2 on the map.



More 10 minute signs at point 3



The driver continues straight on, not turning right or left. For interest, forbidding 'no parking' signs line the route (but with a handy £80 parking charge because reasons). Point 4 on the map;



Finally the driver gets to the small car park, mostly marked disabled spaces, but not entirely. 3 signs are in play at point 5



and then



The gravel patch the driver remembers is not, in fact, a gravel one, but a block paved one. It still has the remains of 'PAY AND DISPLAY' markings (there is no machine)
and there is some attempt at marking spaces. The driver can now see recent 20 minute signs. However, the driver notes that the T+Cs on the signs are so high up, even with
the driver's near 20/20 vision, and in daylight, they are literally unreadable. As a result, the driver photographs them from a similar sign on the 'Disabled' sign, hoping, but never
knowing, that they are the same...

The first pictures look down the red 'strip' drawn on the map;





Tall sign - unreadable even with good vision



Closer







Great - can't finish my post until someone else replies - 'too many images' and then 'cannot merge due to too many images'

If someone else can reply, with anything, I can post the final important last 4... sad.gif
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Redivi
post Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 13:32
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Don't post images like this

See the faq about hosting them at tinypic and posting the links
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publicenemyno1
post Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 13:34
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 14:32) *
Don't post images like this

See the faq about hosting them at tinypic and posting the links


Eh, thought that's what I did, using tinypic and posting the, er, links...? They all go to 'http://i67.tinypic.com/...' etc...

The sticky even says to use the BB code version like I have. Obviously, there is still a post limit even for inline code based pics.

QUOTE
The one to use on PePiPoo is the 'IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards' code line


(OK, apart from the map, the very first one)

On that basis hope no-one minds if I carry on with the last pictures;



Just for completeness, view from the marked yellow disabled section



So there we go.

The driver notes that the style of parking used (pay and display) goes against NHS recommendations and the hospitals own (laughs) 'values statement' and shall be
complaining to the parking office, hospital complaints email, and PALS along these lines.

The driver finally notes that in darkness, most of the signs are quite literally unreadable...



This post has been edited by publicenemyno1: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 14:02
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 22:04
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Hmmm, the red strip has a sign at either end facing the parking area, allowing 20 minutes only.

The sign in the dark is of no relevance, as this event was in the morning.

Not seeing much to go on here, unless the driver is able to say that the vehicle was not stopped for more than 20 minutes at any given time within the large and sprawling site, and points out that PE have misleadingly used what looks like the first arrival and last exit photos from when the car first crossed the threshold of the entire site.

I would quickly email ParkingEye for a SAR, pics of all times the VRN was captured that day, you might be surprised, like in this case, they will have got your car lots of times and that might help win the case at POPLA as it shows the car actually traversed the site all over the place:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/20...se-drivers.html

So email them for a SAR today:

info@parkingeye.co.uk

Include your name, postal address and PCN number and VRN, and say that they already know you are the registered keeper of that car, so the data showing all camera data on that day, of that VRN, is yours to request.

Tell them to treat it as a Subject Access Request and ask why their PCN does not actually tell you about your right to this information, nor where to write to for subject access, which in itself breaches established ICO rules on ANPR enforcement and fails in terms of the requirement for a Privacy Notice.

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publicenemyno1
post Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 07:01
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 23:04) *
Hmmm, the red strip has a sign at either end facing the parking area, allowing 20 minutes only.

The sign in the dark is of no relevance, as this event was in the morning.

Not seeing much to go on here, unless the driver is able to say that the vehicle was not stopped for more than 20 minutes at any given time within the large and sprawling site, and points out that PE have misleadingly used what looks like the first arrival and last exit photos from when the car first crossed the threshold of the entire site.

I would quickly email ParkingEye for a SAR, pics of all times the VRN was captured that day, you might be surprised, like in this case, they will have got your car lots of times and that might help win the case at POPLA as it shows the car actually traversed the site all over the place:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/20...se-drivers.html

So email them for a SAR today:

info@parkingeye.co.uk

Include your name, postal address and PCN number and VRN, and say that they already know you are the registered keeper of that car, so the data showing all camera data on that day, of that VRN, is yours to request.

Tell them to treat it as a Subject Access Request and ask why their PCN does not actually tell you about your right to this information, nor where to write to for subject access, which in itself breaches established ICO rules on ANPR enforcement and fails in terms of the requirement for a Privacy Notice.


Will do that.

The driver took the dark sign only as some of the drivers subsequent visits have been at night (hence why the driver was able to take the photo) - and they are truly unreadable at that time, that is no manipulation or deliberate underexposure etc.... However, the two speculative invoices expected (it is assumed the 2nd and final will arrive today) will be at similar daylight times on two consecutive days.

Is there no 'benefit' to the driver that the 20 minute sign is so high as to be missed and it is unable to read the terms on it even in daylight? Is it fair that the driver is expected to have to read the T+Cs from a sign in a car park that may be different as e.g. they are from a free disabled area?

Also that the first sign seen on entry is the 10 minute one rather than anything more general?
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publicenemyno1
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 07:16
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QUOTE (publicenemyno1 @ Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 08:01) *
However, the two speculative invoices expected (it is assumed the 2nd and final will arrive today)


The fact that the 2nd has not arrived yet (on the balance of probability, I imagine it would / should have by now, not holding my breath until the window times out, of course) only goes to highlight how flawed the ANPR system is...

Interesting nugget from the staff website, penalties and fines, are they?? Also potentially blows a hole in my hope there might be an ALDI style 'no court' clause for the site.
Is it worth a FoI to see who wrote this and what they based the information on, e.g. a template document from PE??



http://www.ruh.nhs.uk/careers/documents/pa...cation_form.pdf

This post has been edited by publicenemyno1: Wed, 2 May 2018 - 07:39
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publicenemyno1
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 18:20
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Am working on the assumption the invoice I have already got from PE is the only one I will get by now - I was expecting another but time wise i think it is already up (I can check if and when this happens).

Had the usual rejection received on the 11th May, dated 8th May, with a POPLA code. I won't bother uploading as I assume it is a 100% generic letter with the usual pages on how Beavis = victories for PE in perpetuity.

On the same day my SAR was answered, as if it formed part of the appeal.

I sent this...

QUOTE
Parking Eye Reference ***

***

Dear Sir or Madam

Subject access request

***

Please supply all the information (e.g. pictures, VRN data, and video recordings) I am entitled to under the
Data Protection Act 1998 relating to the vehicle bearing the VRN *** on any and all of your
CCTV and/or ANPR cameras situated at the Royal United Hospital, Bath on the 21st April 2018.

There is no valid reason for you to withhold this information, as you have already established via the DVLA
that I am the Registered Keeper of this vehicle, reference ***.

Furthermore, I would like to enquire as to why your postal PCN does not inform me of my right to this information,
nor where to write to for subject access. This in itself breaches established ICO rules on ANPR enforcement and fails
in terms of the requirement for a Privacy Notice. I may send a letter of complaint to the ICO in respect of this matter.

If you need any more information from me, please let me know as soon as possible.

It may be helpful for you to know that a request for information under the Data Protection Act 1998 should be responded to within 40 days.

If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your Data Protection Officer. If you need advice on dealing with this request,
the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you and can be contacted on 0303 123 1113 or at ico.org.uk

Yours Faithfully

***


They replied like this...

QUOTE
Reference: Parking Charge Notice - ***
Dear Sir / Madam,
We are writing to you to in relation to the Parking Charge incurred on 21 April 2018 at 12:01:44, at Royal United Hospital Bath - 3 car park.
Please find attached information concerning your appeal.
Kind Regards,
ParkingEye Team




I am very much hoping that I may be able to name the driver, if I can have better pictures than can be seen online at the PE 'evidence' site.

On that above point, if I don't get my response within the 28 days I need to go to POPLA, is that worth a punt e.g would like to name the driver, but cannot
as PE won't supply without charging (which I accept they are entitled to do) and/or in time? (I am assuming they will take their time over this).

Are PE justified in asking for further ID?

This post has been edited by publicenemyno1: Sat, 12 May 2018 - 19:01
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nigelbb
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 09:16
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Wait another couple of weeks & submit another SAR which under new GDPR will cost you nothing. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-...ight-of-access/

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Sun, 13 May 2018 - 09:18


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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publicenemyno1
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 10:22
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 10:16) *
Wait another couple of weeks & submit another SAR which under new GDPR will cost you nothing. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-...ight-of-access/


I was wondering that after I posted, when I realised how close it was - though unsure if the new free-ness would include SARs for events before the 22nd?

I'd have to say that is unclear, or rather, doesn't seem to be mentioned, much online from what I've found. On that basis, I'd assume it is retrospectively free. e.g. these are the new rules, end of.

I take it you cannot 'stall' POPLA if you are waiting for 'further evidence'? Or would you simply state in the submission that at the time of writing, you were still waiting?

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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 15:54
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You simply re-apply for the SAR once GDPR comes in.

QUOTE
On that above point, if I don't get my response within the 28 days I need to go to POPLA, is that worth a punt e.g would like to name the driver

Why?
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publicenemyno1
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 16:25
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 16:54) *
You simply re-apply for the SAR once GDPR comes in.

QUOTE
On that above point, if I don't get my response within the 28 days I need to go to POPLA, is that worth a punt e.g would like to name the driver

Why?


I have a far better opportunity to name the driver if I can have some CCTV footage and/or data other than the 2" picture I have been provided with so far.
On the only front facing picture supplied so far, as part of the online 'evidence', the entire windscreen is covered in overlaid telemetry data etc... in a black box.

I am not saying as keeper I can or will name the driver, but it's just a fact that right now I wouldn't have a clue.

Of course, the data may also throw up the car in many places all over the site as well.

But if said SAR requested pictures / data don't arrive before the POPLA deadline, this could effect either prong of attack.

Or do I just make that part of the POPLA complaint, i.e. PE did not make it clear I could even make an SAR, let alone supply any requested information
in time for the appeal that would be helpful to me as RK.

Of course, I am obviously assuming given PE's track record of not giving a **** that if a further SAR is left until the 22nd, it would not arrive before the POPLA deadline.
I think that is a very likely outcome, as assumptions go.

By the by I have also emailed PALS and other hospital contacts today.

This post has been edited by publicenemyno1: Sun, 13 May 2018 - 16:33
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 16:45
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But why do you WANT to name the driver? I don't understand why you are trying to identify them.

We don't normally. Keepers appeal.
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publicenemyno1
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 17:18
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 17:45) *
But why do you WANT to name the driver? I don't understand why you are trying to identify them.

We don't normally. Keepers appeal.


I would not say I want to - just that I thought it was an interesting angle, the PPC effectively stopping someone from doing so by providing all the available data, either in time for
an appeal, or at all.

If you think this is barking up the wrong tree, that's fine, you know the score far better than I.

Either way will be delighted to be asking the RUH itself for all possible CCTV data come the 22nd. I say delighted, well, obviously not as it is an NHS hospital that should be concentrating on better things.
But on the other hand, they made their (Emin looking) bed with PE and now they have to lie in it.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 06:47
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Its barking up the wrong tree, as you can name the driver anytime before proceedings are initiated.
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