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[NIP Wizard] 5 Month old ticket from a hire car has caught up with me.
TheGreyJ
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 19:36
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2019
Date of the NIP: - 136 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 138 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A57 Hyde Road, Near Devonshire Street, Manchester, UNITED KINGDOM
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Hire Car, I used after a crash.
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was returning a courtesy car given to me by my insurance back to the hire place and got flashed doing 37 in a 30 as I hadn't been that route before. I've been on the gmppas site and found that this notice has been served to 3 different drivers before landing on me. I'm not sure if the course has been offered to me as I have never received a ticket in the past and am a first year driver.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 19:36:14 +0000
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post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 19:36
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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 19:54
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It's way too late to be offered a course.

However if you are lucky you might be able to get the offence to timeout, the police have 6 months from the date of the offence to start proceedings. If the offence was in July then the timeout would occur in January.

I assume you have received a S172 notice requiring the name of the driver, if so does it have a time limit (i.e 14/21/28 days) indicated. You need to wait until a couple of days before the limit expires and submit your reply. Then hopefully they will issue you with a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty which has its own 28 day time limit to reply. If this limit is beyond the 6 month from the date pf the offence, then you cannot be prosecuted. There is however a possibility that instead of the fixed penalty offer that they go straight to the court stage.
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Logician
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 20:24
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Post your reply at a Post Office and get a receipt. Items can get lost over Christmas so you need to be able to prove you sent a reply.


--------------------



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The Rookie
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 20:59
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It’s very unlikely a fixed penalty will be offered, even if it goes to court you would have a good case for only being punished at the FP tariff.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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TheGreyJ
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 21:33
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It seems odd that I'm being punished because it took them 5 months and 3 different people to figure out it was me driving??

I'd like to do the course given the chance, or have it timeout... I can't afford 3 points on my license as well as the claim that means I was driving that hire car in the first place.
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Jlc
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 21:49
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It is unfortunate but the best you’ll get is 3 points and £100 fine. But it’s possible it could be higher if they don’t apply the sentencing guidelines fully. The court cannot offer a course.

There does not appear to be time for a ‘timeout’ unless they do offer a fixed penalty.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 22:25
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QUOTE (TheGreyJ @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 21:33) *
It seems odd that I'm being punished because it took them 5 months and 3 different people to figure out it was me driving??


The police do not deliberately delay tracing the person keeping the vehicle. They start by contacting the Registered Keeper (RK) and rely on the information given by them to contact the relevant person. It cannot be the fault of the police if it takes two or three attempts. Many vehicles have a lease company as the RK. The only information they have is the people to whom they lease the vehicle. That may be, say, a hire company and they only know who hired the vehicle from them. There may be more than one driver on the hire agreement and the person contacted may not have been the driver. Each of these recipients has 28 days to respond to the requests they are sent and it is easy to see how three or four months can elapse before the driver is contacted.

You should not suffer more than a Fixed Penalty equivalent if the matter is dealt with in court as Magistrates have specific guidance which suggests a FP equivalent should be levied in circumstances such as yours.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 22:27
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TheGreyJ
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 23:24
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 22:25) *
QUOTE (TheGreyJ @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 21:33) *
It seems odd that I'm being punished because it took them 5 months and 3 different people to figure out it was me driving??


The police do not deliberately delay tracing the person keeping the vehicle. They start by contacting the Registered Keeper (RK) and rely on the information given by them to contact the relevant person. It cannot be the fault of the police if it takes two or three attempts. Many vehicles have a lease company as the RK. The only information they have is the people to whom they lease the vehicle. That may be, say, a hire company and they only know who hired the vehicle from them. There may be more than one driver on the hire agreement and the person contacted may not have been the driver. Each of these recipients has 28 days to respond to the requests they are sent and it is easy to see how three or four months can elapse before the driver is contacted.

You should not suffer more than a Fixed Penalty equivalent if the matter is dealt with in court as Magistrates have specific guidance which suggests a FP equivalent should be levied in circumstances such as yours.


Would this mean I'd get the points if offered a fixed penalty equivalent?
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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 23:55
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QUOTE (TheGreyJ @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 23:24) *
Would this mean I'd get the points if offered a fixed penalty equivalent?

Yes, that is what is a fixed penalty is (3 points & £100).
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blackcross
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 00:08
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QUOTE (TheGreyJ @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 21:33) *
It seems odd that I'm being punished because it took them 5 months and 3 different people to figure out it was me driving??


Except, of course, any punishment will arise from your speeding rather than the admin delay. You can’t stop this going to court if the police decide not to offer a fixed penalty, but as other have noted you should then ask the court to fine you at the fixed penalty rate (albeit with costs and victim surcharge very likely on top).

You have mentioned that you are a first year driver. Don’t leave yourself exposed to a charge of failing to name the driver, as that would likely reukt in six points and revocation of your licence.
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TheGreyJ
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 19:49
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Here is the screenshot from GMPPAS. The form I have says I may be offered the course if I respond in 28 days?

Is this a possiblity or is timing it out a possibility?
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cp8759
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 19:59
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QUOTE (TheGreyJ @ Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 19:49) *
Is this a possiblity or is timing it out a possibility?

Well why don't you tell us the actual date of your current s172 request, and the actual date of the original offence?


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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andy_foster
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 20:49
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We don't need to know the actual dates to know that there are ~19 days from when his s. 172 response must be served to the last day to instigate proceedings.
Course isn't going to happen.


--------------------
Andy

Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
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TheGreyJ
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 00:23
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Date of offense: 27/07/19

Date of letter: 10/12/19


Should I try and wait 28 days, send it off and see if it can get dropped?
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The Rookie
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 06:55
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If you wait 28 days you do it an offence more serious than speeding,

The reply must arrive with them on the 28th day from receipt, day of receipt being day 1 not day 0.

Sent on the 10th, deemed served on the 12th, the reply must be in their in post on Jan the 8th.

That gives them plenty of time to issue a court ‘summons’, whereas if you reply now they may just issue an offer of a fixed penalty.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 13:15
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One way to get round the two working days deemed service rule is to send the reply on 7th January by Royal Mail Special Delivery (otherwise you'd need to send it on the 6th and get normal proof of postage), this buys you an extra day. Still, this gives the police over two weeks to start proceedings, so it doesn't seem worth the gamble to me. You could try it on a wing and a prayer, in the hope that they're struggling with the Christmas backlog, but if you answer now there's no reason why you shouldn't get an offer of a fixed penalty.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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TheGreyJ
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 19:34
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Hi all,

Just to give an update on this case. I sent off the NIP on the 7th as recommended, heard nothing since then logged into GMPPAS and saw this:



So.. Happy days? huh.gif
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speedfighter23
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 00:02
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QUOTE (TheGreyJ @ Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 19:34) *
Hi all,

Just to give an update on this case. I sent off the NIP on the 7th as recommended, heard nothing since then logged into GMPPAS and saw this:



So.. Happy days? huh.gif


Looks like they did not have enough time to prosecute you.

This post has been edited by speedfighter23: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 00:02


--------------------
Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

Tyre Puncture Pothole Claims:
0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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