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Untaxed vehicle clamped, released, now back tax and large fine., I think this is in the right place...
David_R
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 21:49
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Hi all.

I thought I had this under control, but clearly not. Quick backstory:

Car was MOTd, taxed and insured and on the road. Gearbox starts failing, so when the MOT and tax were due to expire, I stopped the insurance and took it off the road. I *thought* I had declared SORN, but clearly hadn't. Well over a year later, I decide it's time to get the vehicle fixed. Call up a friend who has a workshop, can he take a look at it? Yes. Vehicle taken by trailer to his workshop, it stays there for a few months while he's very busy, until he can have a look at it. He looks, it's going to be very expensive for him to do. I can't afford that at the moment, so he wants to bring it back to me. He does this while I'm working away, and as he can't access the off-road parking where it was before, so the car gets left on the road.

My stupid mistake for not dealing with it instantly, but it ends up left on the road for several weeks, some of which while I'm working away. It's a very quiet residential road, hence no perceived urgency to move it.

Clamping van arrives very early one morning, sees it untaxed; clamped. As a sidenote, one of my neighbours had a SORN vehicle on the road too. This was not clamped, but he did get a fine for doing so, clearly from the same enforcement agency. SORNd vehicle fine was about £160 IIRC, and that was the end of it.

£260 to get unclamped. I realise at this point that the vehicle was not on SORN, so get it SORNed immediately. And moved back off road. I can't claim the rebate on clamping if you immediately re-tax the vehicle as it is not MOTd, and won't move under it's own power due to the failed gearbox.

About 5 months later, I get notification that I will be taken to court for not paying the outstanding tax on the vehilce, some £501. (It's a £300-ish a year tax vehicle, off road for a bit under 2 years) This is the first I've heard of it. So I plead guilty on the single justice procedure notice, as the vehicle clearly was on the road and untaxed.. that is not in question. I also write a letter to the court explaining how this happened, apologising, my administrative error for not being SORN, but of course it should also not have been on the road, my fault for not moving it etc. This is the first I have heard about this, would have paid up if I had known before.

So today I get notification that I now owe not only the £501 in tax, but also a fine of some £488, and costs of £85. So that's well over a grand. To be paid within 2 weeks.

Now.. I can see how this has happened... I assume I would have been written to by the DVLA and told I needed to pay them £501 in back tax from when the vehicle was last taxed until it was spotted on the road / SORN declared, this never arrived (for whatever reason) and hence with no response from me it has been passed to the court. What I can't see is the justice in having an accidentally-untaxed vehicle parked on the road costing me over £1300 all in. This does not seem reasonable or proportional to the crime committed.

Is this reasonable? I note on the SJP notice that there is a procedure to appeal against the sentence.. Is this worthwhile, and has anyone had success in the past?

Even if I have no course of action to reduce this to something proportional to the crime in question, there is no way I can find a grand that quickly, so I am going to have to ask the court for time to pay. I filled in the means form, which showed I had about £20/month spare (which is entirely accurate), so is there any likelyhood of the court accpeting something like £50/month for this?

Suffice to say I'm feeling like somewhat of a soft target at the moment. Yes, I made errors. I should have declared the vehicle SORN, and should have checked that it was, and I should have moved the vehicle the instant I knew it was on the road, but this seems like a comparitively low-level offence and I'm being hit absurdly hard.

Any advice and guidance is *very* gratefully received.

David.
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post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 21:49
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 22:27
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Is this the same incident? SORN Issue
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David_R
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 22:58
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No, completely different vehicle. The SORN issue vehicle in the other thread was dealt with a while back, this is very much now.

Also, thank you to whoever moved this to the correct forum.

This post has been edited by David_R: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 22:59
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Logician
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 23:45
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If anything you seem to have been fined at below the guideline level, so it would be a mistake to appeal against the fine as it is unlikely to be reduced and could be increased. There is a great deal of bureaucracy to car ownership and if you do not get it right, then unfortunately the penalties can be quite heavy and do mount up in the case of road tax. As the car was untaxed for so long you should have received a number of reminders.
I doubt whether the court office will accept as little as £20 pcm, that rate would take 4 years to clear the fine, but you will just have to see what they will accept.


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David_R
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 07:58
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I totally agree that I managed to make a fair mess of the paperwork of this vehicle, but it seems utterly disproportionate that a speeding fine is £100 (putting lives at risk), a driving unisured fine might be £600, (putting people at risk), a drink-driving fine is likely sub-£1000 (putting lives at significant risk), but leaving an untaxed vehicle stationary on the road, and hence almost-zero risk to anyone is going to cost me £1300.


Also, would the fine have been the same on any letter direct from the DVLA? As in, have I been disadvantaged by the fact that this has gone to court, as I would have paid at the earliest opportunity if I had known?

I will phone the court today to see what arrangement I can make for payment.

Really quite disgusted by this. I could have driven a car drunk, with no licence, no insurance and no MOT and likely had a smaller fine.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 08:12
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Yes, the proposed settlement from DVLA would have been cheaper, in the same way fixed penalties levels can be sentenced in court I see no reason why the same principle couldn't apply, how much less it would have been I'm not sure.

As a rule of thumb courts look for about 10% to be paid per month.

The analogy to drunk driving is meaningless as there the primary penalty is not the fine but not having a licence for at least a year, and if you add the fines for drink driving, no licence and no insurance up it would likely have come to more anyway, plus the fact the first years premium after the disqualification would be around treble.


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southpaw82
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 08:32
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QUOTE (David_R @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 08:58) *
I totally agree that I managed to make a fair mess of the paperwork of this vehicle, but it seems utterly disproportionate that a speeding fine is £100 (putting lives at risk), a driving unisured fine might be £600, (putting people at risk), a drink-driving fine is likely sub-£1000 (putting lives at significant risk), but leaving an untaxed vehicle stationary on the road, and hence almost-zero risk to anyone is going to cost me £1300.


Also, would the fine have been the same on any letter direct from the DVLA? As in, have I been disadvantaged by the fact that this has gone to court, as I would have paid at the earliest opportunity if I had known?

I will phone the court today to see what arrangement I can make for payment.

Really quite disgusted by this. I could have driven a car drunk, with no licence, no insurance and no MOT and likely had a smaller fine.

A large element of the fine is to remove the financial benefit you obtained by not taxing the car. Another element is to punish you. Your hair shirt perhaps needs to go back in the wardrobe.


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David_R
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 10:01
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:12) *
Yes, the proposed settlement from DVLA would have been cheaper, in the same way fixed penalties levels can be sentenced in court I see no reason why the same principle couldn't apply, how much less it would have been I'm not sure.

As a rule of thumb courts look for about 10% to be paid per month.

The analogy to drunk driving is meaningless as there the primary penalty is not the fine but not having a licence for at least a year, and if you add the fines for drink driving, no licence and no insurance up it would likely have come to more anyway, plus the fact the first years premium after the disqualification would be around treble.


I agree, the comparison to DD is unrealistic. Maybe a comparison to some offence that carries no penalty points, for instance driving a vehicle with no valid MOT. This is limited to a maximum of £1000, and likely much less. Surely driving a vehicle with no valid MOT is a more serious offence than leaving an untaxed vehicle on the road? I know I'm not actually achieving anything by this comparison, but I still think it's extremely disproportionate.

Spoke to a very helpful lady at "Enforcement" this morning, and they can split over 4 months with no issue, or if you need longer will need means form, wage slips, bank statements etc. Going to aim for your suggested 10%/month figure, as that seems reasonable.

Even if I could get this "reduced back" to the fine that the DVLA would have sent me, I have no clue how to go about that, and I suspect it will be fruitless anyway..

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:32) *
A large element of the fine is to remove the financial benefit you obtained by not taxing the car. Another element is to punish you. Your hair shirt perhaps needs to go back in the wardrobe.


As explained to the court.. there was no financial benefit to me by not taxing the car.. It should have been on SORN, and was off-road for the vast majority of the time in question, and *never* used on the road. The neighbour who had a SORN-declared vehicle on the road has not been fined or charged back-tax, so it seems somewhat heavy-handed for me to end up with a thousand pound charge/fine for an administrative error.

I don't understand the reference to a "hair shirt".

Either way, it will get paid. And the lesson learned that the taxation status of a vehicle is far more (financially) important than any other aspect of legality.
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peterguk
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 10:14
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Certainly with SORN application, and transfer of RK, it is normal for DVLA to confirm receipt of application. Might be wise to query if no confirmation received within a few weeks? That should help eliinate sitiuations like this one.


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David_R
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 11:26
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 11:14) *
Might be wise to query if no confirmation received within a few weeks?

I absolutely agree that I should have checked. After all, a check as to the taxation status of a vehicle can be done in just a few seconds online.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 11:34
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QUOTE (David_R @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 11:01) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:32) *
A large element of the fine is to remove the financial benefit you obtained by not taxing the car. Another element is to punish you. Your hair shirt perhaps needs to go back in the wardrobe.


As explained to the court.. there was no financial benefit to me by not taxing the car.. It should have been on SORN, and was off-road for the vast majority of the time in question


You were charged the tax that should have been paid, being off road for the vast majority isn't enough in that respect, my car is on the drive for at least 16 hours a day and often 24, it's probably on the road for for only about 5 hours a week, does that mean I don't have to pay full road tax?

You could have defended the allegation on the basis the SORN was sent and that DVLA were at fault for not processing it.....

QUOTE (David_R @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 11:01) *
I don't understand the reference to a "hair shirt".

Maybe you are too young!

hair shirt
noun
1.
a shirt of haircloth, formerly worn by penitents and ascetics.

Now used in the proverbial sense not literal.


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David_R
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 11:50
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 12:34) *
You were charged the tax that should have been paid, being off road for the vast majority isn't enough in that respect, my car is on the drive for at least 16 hours a day and often 24, it's probably on the road for for only about 5 hours a week, does that mean I don't have to pay full road tax?



Not quite my point. If a vehicle is in regular use (daily/weekly/monthly) then of course VED needs paying. My point was that the vehicle was off road continuously for well over 18 months, and only put on the road due to the slightly-odd circumstances as outlined in my original post.. It was also never used on the road. (although I appreciate that most laws are written as "used or kept", no distinction being made between the two)

(I understood what a hair shirt is, and who used to wear them, but still don't see how it's relevant here.... but like having to explain a joke, it's probably not worth it!)

I did consider the defence of "I applied for SORN, but the DVLA didn't process it", but given that the vehicle was seen on the road, I thought that would be a can of worms best not opened. Had it been spotted off-road but not declared SORN (IE I was complying with SORN requirements) then this might have been worthwhile. I suspect this is completely academic now.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:00
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It's a very quiet residential road, hence no perceived urgency to move it.

Hardly chimes with I *thought* I had declared SORN,

Had you thought so, then you would not have left the vehicle on the street.

It's sometimes easier to look for mistakes in others while minimising one's own, but leaving a vehicle 'on the road for several weeks' is hardly a minor administrative error. And remember, you were not pursued for not SORN'ing, it was because your vehicle was not taxed - and hadn't been for yonks ( and as far as objective reasoning is concerned they were entitled to believe since you last taxed the vehicle, nearly 2 years ago.).

Put it down to, and learn from, the experience
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Logician
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:08
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You know the vehicle was off the road so you think paying all the back tax is greatly excessive, but as far as the system is concerned no tax was paid for two years, no SORN was received, and then the vehicle was found on the road, so it could have been used on the road for two years, and therefore not only the back tax but a penalty is due. I am sorry, but even if you could prove the vehicle was off the road you are not going to get out of this one or even reduce the amount. All you can do is spread the pain as much as possible.


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David_R
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:16
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 15:00) *
It's a very quiet residential road, hence no perceived urgency to move it.

Hardly chimes with I *thought* I had declared SORN,

Had you thought so, then you would not have left the vehicle on the street.



They were two seperate issues. I did think I had declared SORN, but also when the vehicle was left on the street for me, I had no percieved urgency to move it as the location is fairly rural, and it's not like central london with ANPR vans running up and down the road every day.

My comment about the SORN was only due to the fact that my Neighbour was in that situation (SORNd vehicle on the road and was caught) and did not end up with the size of fine that I've ended up with. The leaving of the vehicle on the road was not the minor administrative error.. that was not delaring SORN, which would have made a massive difference.

What is particularly irritating about this is that about half-a-mile away there is a guy who regularly leaves untaxed / SORN vehicles on the road, but just plonks fake Romanian/Polish registration plates on them.. he's been doing it for years and has been *completely* ignored by the authorities.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:44
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So you left it on the road when you should be paying tax...... nothing to complain about then really?

Presumably your neighbours car was cheaper to tax and/or untaxed for a shorter period, hence the penalty part of the fine was lower.

How do you know they are fake, if the authorities knew they were fake they would certainly take action, but upon driving past its pretty impossible to tell?

You'll give yourself an ulcer, time to accept it and move on I'd suggest.


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David_R
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 09:35
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 15:44) *
So you left it on the road when you should be paying tax...... nothing to complain about then really?

I'm absolutely not complaining about that... I was wrong. I accept that a fine/penalty of some sort is absolutely correct. The size of the penalty to pay (overall, to both agencies for various reasons) seems disproportionate.


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 15:44) *
Presumably your neighbours car was cheaper to tax and/or untaxed for a shorter period, hence the penalty part of the fine was lower.

Yes, it's a cheaper-rate vehicle, but he received a fine from the same agency who clamped mine. It was just over £100. He's heard nothing from the DVLA, has not been required to pay back tax or a fine.


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 15:44) *
How do you know they are fake, if the authorities knew they were fake they would certainly take action, but upon driving past its pretty impossible to tell?

When you see the same number plate on three different vehicles (at different times), those vehicles are RHD, one has a UK dealer sticker in the rear window and in one case you've previously seen one being driven on a UK registration, then parked on the road on the Romanian registration, and then back on the road on the original UK registration, it's fairly blatantly obvious that the foriegn plates are being used to park a car on the road which is/should be SORN and off the road.


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 15:44) *
You'll give yourself an ulcer, time to accept it and move on I'd suggest.

I agree. I've done as both you and Logician have said and have applied to spread this over 10 paymens. I plan to grumble, mumble, and generally be somewhat irked every time the payment is made, but given that trying to do anything other than just pay this off will undoubtedly result in misery, there's not a lot of point in doing anything else.


I appreciate everyone's input and comments though.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 11:28
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QUOTE (David_R @ Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 10:35) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 15:44) *
How do you know they are fake, if the authorities knew they were fake they would certainly take action, but upon driving past its pretty impossible to tell?

When you see the same number plate on three different vehicles (at different times), those vehicles are RHD, one has a UK dealer sticker in the rear window and in one case you've previously seen one being driven on a UK registration, then parked on the road on the Romanian registration, and then back on the road on the original UK registration, it's fairly blatantly obvious that the foriegn plates are being used to park a car on the road which is/should be SORN and off the road.


If you are minded to, you could report it, they will then check the VIn and if it should carry a UK VRM action will be taken.

I don't know how Romanian plates work, in some countries the VRM is assigned to a keeper and they can get it moved from one vehicle to the next. Its also not uncommon for ex-pats living here to have UK RHD cars perfectly legitimately registered as overseas as long as it returned to its 'home' country at the necessary frequency.


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ohnoes
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 11:49
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 12:28) *
QUOTE (David_R @ Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 10:35) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 15:44) *
How do you know they are fake, if the authorities knew they were fake they would certainly take action, but upon driving past its pretty impossible to tell?

When you see the same number plate on three different vehicles (at different times), those vehicles are RHD, one has a UK dealer sticker in the rear window and in one case you've previously seen one being driven on a UK registration, then parked on the road on the Romanian registration, and then back on the road on the original UK registration, it's fairly blatantly obvious that the foriegn plates are being used to park a car on the road which is/should be SORN and off the road.


If you are minded to, you could report it, they will then check the VIn and if it should carry a UK VRM action will be taken.

I don't know how Romanian plates work, in some countries the VRM is assigned to a keeper and they can get it moved from one vehicle to the next. Its also not uncommon for ex-pats living here to have UK RHD cars perfectly legitimately registered as overseas as long as it returned to its 'home' country at the necessary frequency.



A UK vehicle can be registered abroad, as long as it is notified as exported to the DVLA and leaves the country at the necessary frequency.
In Met land, police will check VIN numbers of cars bearing foreign plates. If they are not notified exported, they will be seized for no insurance.
I live in a deprived part of london and a lot of EU expats register their UK cars abroad in places like Bulgaria because the insurance is about £150 a year, can't get any parking tickets/speeding fines and it is all above board.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 14:52
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The local Polish supermarket has a RHD Sprinter on Polish plates, they use it to collect 'local produce' from Poland about once a month.


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