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S87 (ii) Cigarette Littering advice, Need some advice regards council letter
Bravecreature
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 00:27
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Hello there.

I was advised to post here as I have a query regards a letter I received today dated 5th October 2018

The alleged offence took place on 5th September 2018 and stated that a council officer saw me “throwing cigarette litter from the drivers window at the above time and location”

Firstly let me say a couple of things. I’m a law abiding man with a respectable job (staff nurse) and this offence allegedly took place a month ago. Also this is my first ever offence of any kind, so I’m completely unaware of what I should do regards this. I hold my hands up and admit that yes I smoke in my car and have on occasion when finishing a cigarette, instead of letting it burn in my car... thrown it out of the window as I drive (thrown? More like dropped tbh). So for them to be issuing this, leads me to believe it isn’t a case of mistaken identity and I will admit I was wrong and am happy to pay. However I’ve got a few questions I’d like to ask first, and I’m here to seek some advice on what to do.

Firstly, they don’t know it was me. They’ve sent this to my address as I’m the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. Yes I probably did do it, but don’t they need some sort of evidence? On his occasion it might not have been me doing this, could be that as I drove past the council officer, a cigarette butt was disturbed on the ground next to my car and looked like I’d dropped it.
So can I request evidence? And if so, and they have no evidence then should I contest it?

The second question is, can they prove this was done intentionally? I’ve read examples of people saying this happened accidentally etc. I have my window down whilst driving and on a few occasions, the wind has pushed the cigarette out of my hand and to avoid a traffic accident I’ve carried on driving. So do they need to provide evidence of intent to litter as well?

The final question is, with this offence taking place over a month ago, am I entitled to the “discount rate” on the FPN?
It states that Fixed Penalty is £80, and says “ Including discounted amounts for payment with 10 days as appropriate” So I’ve just received this today 8/10/2018, and the FPN was issued 5/10/2018 then I should have until 15/10/2018 to be entitled to the discount rate yes?

I’m happy to admit I’m wrong here, if they can provide evidence of this....
Do they need evidence? Do they need to prove intent to litter? Should I contest it? Or just take a slap on the wrists and accept my wrong-doing. And if the advice I receive here tells me it’s best just to pay, then will I be able to pay the discount rate of £50? I can just about afford the £50 and it’ll be a bitter lesson, but £80 I’m gonna struggle with.

Also, the letter says “throwing” but the FPN says “dropped”. I’m not looking to find a loophole in the system here, I’m simply looking for advice and seeing where I stand.

Look forward to the advice given. Many thanks.
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post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 00:27
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Jcar
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 02:01
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Definitely by law they must provide some kind of evidence to confirm what their letters say throwing or dropping cigarette litter, as simple as that.
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Redivi
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 07:12
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Can you confirm that it's an FPN that you've been sent and not a request to identify the driver ?

I have a vague recollection that Manchester introduced a byelaw that made the registered keeper liable

Some councils have form for exceeding their powers and issuing these in breach of the DEFRA guidelines

Use the search box in the top right corner to look for previous threads on the subject
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Jlc
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 07:51
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Any discounted amounts will be from the date of issue of the FPN and not the date of the (alleged) offence.

QUOTE (Jcar @ Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 03:01) *
Definitely by law they must provide some kind of evidence to confirm what their letters say throwing or dropping cigarette litter, as simple as that.

Can you reference this 'law'? (Evidence would be required for any prosecution but may simply consist of a witness)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Bravecreature
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 12:08
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QUOTE (Jcar @ Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 03:01) *
Definitely by law they must provide some kind of evidence to confirm what their letters say throwing or dropping cigarette litter, as simple as that.


Ok so I’m within my rights to request this evidence first? And as stated, can this evidence be simply a witness? So it becomes their word vs mine?

Regarding the question is it a FPN or not, I have received a letter addressed to me, stating it was witnessed by a council
Officer and if I believe it wasn’t me to then inform them who was driving the vehicle at the time. Accompanying this letter is a Notice of Opportunity to Pay Fixed Penalty Notice. On this notice it has my details, including time,date and location of incident.

I have to go out now, but if needed I can send pics of the letter and FPN, as long as they can be attached via phone.
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The Slithy Tove
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 12:32
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Given what you have said here and on MSE, if they took you to court, would you be prepared to stand up on oath and say "it wasn't me"? There is a witness, and you have pretty much admitted as much on public forums.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 14:13
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QUOTE (Bravecreature @ Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 13:08) *
Ok so I’m within my rights to request this evidence first? And as stated, can this evidence be simply a witness? So it becomes their word vs mine?


You can ask for whatever you like but they don’t have to disclose anything to you at this stage. Plenty of people are convicted on a “his word vs my word” basis, particularly where one party has nothing to gain by lying.

QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 13:32) *
Given what you have said here and on MSE, if they took you to court, would you be prepared to stand up on oath and say "it wasn't me"? There is a witness, and you have pretty much admitted as much on public forums.

It’s debatable whether he would have to give evidence at all. At the end of the prosecution case a submission of no case to answer can be made. The test is set out in Galbraith - taking the prosecution case at its highest, could a properly directed court convict the accused? If not, end of case.


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M12MTR
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 20:19
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Just curious.. ... was it 1 fag butt flicked from a car window or an ashtray full tipped on the pavement?
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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 13:22
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QUOTE (Bravecreature @ Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 01:27) *
Firstly, they don’t know it was me. They’ve sent this to my address as I’m the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. Yes I probably did do it, but don’t they need some sort of evidence? On his occasion it might not have been me doing this, could be that as I drove past the council officer, a cigarette butt was disturbed on the ground next to my car and looked like I’d dropped it.
So can I request evidence? And if so, and they have no evidence then should I contest it?

From what you say it sounds like it might be a civil penalty issued under The Littering From Vehicles Outside London (Keepers: Civil Penalties) Regulations 2018, as it imposes liability on the registered keeper, no matter who committed the littering offence (a bit like parking PCNs where the owner is liable no matter who was driving). In this scenario, it doesn't matter whether it was you who was seen littering or not. If you post a redacted copy of the paperwork (hiding just name / address / number plate) we can check.

However if it is a Fixed Penalty Notice, they're going to struggle to prove it was you so if they were to take the matter to court, a submission of no case to answer could suffice. They might have enclosed paperwork inviting you to confirm the identity of the driver, but they cannot compel you to respond so if you ignore it they will have no evidence of who was driving. Again, if you post the paperwork we can check.

QUOTE (Bravecreature @ Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 01:27) *
The second question is, can they prove this was done intentionally? I’ve read examples of people saying this happened accidentally etc. I have my window down whilst driving and on a few occasions, the wind has pushed the cigarette out of my hand and to avoid a traffic accident I’ve carried on driving. So do they need to provide evidence of intent to litter as well?

As far as I'm aware section 87 imposes strict liability so there is no need to prove intent (just as the police don't need to improve you had any intent to exceed the speed limit in a speeding case).


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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