Drive on motorway, fail to comply with lane closure signals |
Drive on motorway, fail to comply with lane closure signals |
Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 23:12
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 22 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,751 |
Dear pepipoo
I was in lane 1 on the M25 when it slowed to a complete stop together with all cars in all lanes. There was no road closure sign when I passed the last gantry bridge prior to coming to a complete stop. 45 mins later i moved over a few feet to allow 2 police cars to pass. After a further 15 mins traffic started to move and as i approached the next gantry bridge I saw that lane 1 was closed and moved to lane two prior to passing under it. 5 working days later I receive a notice of intended prosecution with the offence - Drive on motorway, fail to comply with red / green arrow / lane closure signals - manual detection. I can only assume that the police car video was reviewed. But here is my issue. When I was in lane 1 there was no lane closure at the time. It is possible that it then became closed but how was I to know it was? Even if i was notified I couldn't then move into lane 2 because that too was bumper to bumper. I want to attend court to contest this. Do I have any chance in this? This post has been edited by marcusmaximus172: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 23:13 |
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Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 23:12
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Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 21:07
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Not at all, seeing a car in a lane that has now been closed didn’t mean the offence was committed does it, in fact the evidence itself should not be sufficient to convict if they haven’t seen the driver pass the red X. That point seems to have eluded you again. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 22:49
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
So go on then?
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 23:07
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#23
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
So go on then? If you'd read as far as post #7, rather than latch on to one detail of a previous post that wasn't that pertinent to the point I was making, then you might have some clue. -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 19:11
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#24
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,213 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
If the offence is passing a red X, like passing a red light, then merely being on the other side without knowing when the sign was displayed, does not appear to constitute proof beyond any reasonable doubt. In the context of stationary traffic which was there for about 45 minutes, even less so.
In the artificially narrow hypothetical context of whether merely being in the closed lane creates a case to answer on the balance of probabilities and refusing to give evidence could be legitimately give rise to a sufficiently adverse inference, then it might be that Simon has missed the point, but I can't help thinking that the point he would have missed in essence isn't the point in this case. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 19:38
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#25
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
The point was that one of our members was suggesting that the police would need some independent evidence of the offence - whatever that specific offence was. That's all I was responding to, and I only did so because that could have misled the OP.
-------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 19:47
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#26
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,213 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
Grateful for the clarification, m'lud
-------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 20:54
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
The point was that one of our members was suggesting that the police would need some independent evidence of the offence - whatever that specific offence was. That's all I was responding to, and I only did so because that could have misled the OP. Thanks...... -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 23:16
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#28
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 22 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,751 |
The Highways agency is going to send me the time at which the 40mph sign switched to closed lane.
Unfortunately they have discarded the cctv footage as it’s been 6 days since the incident. They discard the footage after 5 days. When I was stationary and engine off I made 3 phone calls to the wife and browsed Facebook with gps on. I can’t remember how soon after coming to a stop did I make the first phone call or browse social media. If I can prove that I was stationary at a particular time (by comparing two gps co-ordinates then) then there’s a chance that the timings can prove that I was already in traffic before the lane was closed. I’ll have to contact Vodafone to see if they can help |
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Mon, 25 Nov 2019 - 09:07
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I’ll have to contact Vodafone to see if they can help You hardly need to contact Vodafone, if you register an online account you can access your usage data. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 25 Nov 2019 - 12:09
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 291 Joined: 12 Jan 2013 Member No.: 59,321 |
Would an oft mentioned "bemused phone call" be appropriate I wonder?
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Wed, 27 Nov 2019 - 11:58
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#31
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 22 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,751 |
Informed by highways that the lane was closed 12:52. I was already in that lane, in traffic much before this.
Vodafone won’t release location info for a 12:44 call I made whilst in traffic. This information is only available to police. Well I guess I’m at a dead end and it will have to depend on if the judge believes me or not. I have no evidence to prove them wrong so I’m prepared for an injustice. Any other ideas folks ? |
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Wed, 27 Nov 2019 - 12:03
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
What is the time given on the NIP?
I'd write to the police pointing out that the lane closed at 12:52, that you were stuck in the key in what subsequently became a closed lane at 12:44, and that you weren't spotted by police until 12:XX that being circa XXXmetres after the closure sign. As such not only did you not contravene the lane closure sign but the police most certainly do not have any evidence you did and as such you suggest it is in everyone's best interest for them to discontinue the case rather than waste everyone's time. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Wed, 27 Nov 2019 - 12:21
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#33
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 22 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,751 |
Offence was at 13:07 which is when the police cars came by.
Thanks for the advice. I’ll write to them. |
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Wed, 27 Nov 2019 - 21:59
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Vodafone won’t release location info for a 12:44 call I made whilst in traffic. This information is only available to police. This is bollocks, if you make a Subject Access Request under GDPR Vodafone has no right to withhold it from you. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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