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Vehicle clamped after PCN not received, Richmond Council CCTV PCN I never received, found out once car clamped
Mariabelle
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 15:50
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Hello guys,

I was wondering if you could help me here.

So on 17th June 2019 (last year) my car gets shot on CCTV (by a passing bus camera I believe) as stopped half way on loading bay halfway on bus stop. I was collecting food for charity from the shop at the bus stop, and there was a lorry taking up most of the loading bay, but I wasn't longer than 10mins, tesco staff helps me load my boot with the food, and surely there was enough room for the bus, bust stop marking long. Mind you I used to stop at that loading bay every Monday morning for almost a year and never had a problem until that one time.

Regardless, what happens is Richmond Council sends the PCN to my old address in Kent that DVLA has given them. I don't know anything about it, until this February, on 14th Feb 2020 I get home from work to find my car clamped on the road in Westminster where I live. No PCN on it, just bailiffs number.

I got in touch with the enforcement agent, not the bailiff to request details. They provided the PCN number. I realised what has happened. Interestingly, when the enforcement agent took the case from the council they didn't check themselves with DVLA what my address was, they just went ahead to enforcement steps, piled the fines and then clamped my vehicle when it showed on their ANPR. My understanding is the enforcement agent should have checked with DVLA about address once the reg showed on ANPR. So I filed a complaint with them via Resolver, they said they have followed their process, so now I am at a stage where I can bring the complaint to their regulatory body.

I also emailed the councils parking office and asked them how is it that they employ the services of an enforcement agency that doesn't follow due checks and process and they responded in writing that its not the councils responsibility if the agency has checked or not. They were satisfied with the information they have received from the enforcement agency, which I couldn't get for gdpr, but I could get a date by date breakdown of the case, clearly showing case passed to enforcement agent on 20 November 2019, should they have checked with DVLA then, they'd have found my current address. They haven't. They used the info Richmond Council gave them dated June 2019. Lots can happen on 5 months time.

So I followed process and filed TEC 7 and 9 which were refused. No reason given. Clamp was taken down couple of days after tec submission though, so in total I couldn't use my car for 7 days.

Then covid hit us all and I had no means to find a lawyer to help me fill N244 but I am keen to do it. I am aware it is beyond the period allowed for filing it, but I there is something on the form about filing late as long as you can justify the late filing.

So my question is, is covid a reason enough and could I still go on and do my N244? I have proof of where I've lived and when I've moved, tenancy agremenets, council tax letters, etc. As well as letter from dvla from the period with correct address on. Surely, they cannot refuse the fact they've been sending all notices to the wrong address.

If so, could someone please help me fill the form, I need to do it right to avoid rejection. Happy to pay for services rendered.

Even though I got the tec rejection enforcement or council hasn't recommended perhaps because of covid, not sure where am I standing right now with council or enforcement agency to be honest. Are they restarting, who and what the next step is restarting the process... Any light shed on that would be appreciated.

Initially I was planning to pay the PCN once it goes back to just PCN without a 400 quid of fines by enforcement agency on top, but Richmond Council have taken so much time, have been completely unwilling to understand the circumstance, and blatantly refused my tec that it makes me want to challenge them further. I know it will cost me more, but I'd like to proceed and challenge the PCN and then get them to reimburse me for the week I wasn't able to use my car as well as all the other costs I will incur in the process.

Seeing as I was doing this to help feed the poor people they clearly do not feed in their own council. Charity and tesco shop personnel would back up with statements.

Thank you for advising.
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Attached File  notice_history_report.pdf ( 284.04K ) Number of downloads: 59
 
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post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 15:50
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stamfordman
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 16:03
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We are going to need to see all the docs you have to try and sort this out.

When did the you change the V5C reg doc to your new address.

Did you get an enforcement notice at this address - seems it was issued for the old one and they spotted the car?

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Mariabelle
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 16:14
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 17:03) *
We are going to need to see all the docs you have to try and sort this out.

When did the you change the V5C reg doc to your new address.

Did you get an enforcement notice at this address - seems it was issued for the old one and they spotted the car?


Thank you Stamfordman,

The case time line is attached in the original post, and I have in writing from both phoenix and Richmond Council that they have been using the wrong address. When I made them aware, they both refused to exercise discretion and amend themselves, sent me on the tec route. I can attach these emails here too.
What other documents would you need? Is it safe enough to put docs here showing my current address?
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hcandersen
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 18:07
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C'mon.

Let's think about what you did, or didn't do, shall we?

I registered address A with DVLA on ****.

Since when I've moved *** times and not updated my DVLA details/done it late or whatever.

The authority are REQUIRED to use DVLA info unless advised to the contrary.

You didn't twice i.e. update DVLA or notify the council.

Your fault.

Moving on..

The authority are permitted to continue to use your DVLA address and have no obligation to return to DVLA to see if errant RKs have decided to update their details.

This inevitably leads to the warrant of control being issued in respect of your DVLA address at the time of the contravention. It's not 'wrong', it's correct procedurally, it's you that's wrong in not keeping DVLA up to speed.

So, having sorted this out what's left?

IMO, you are only liable for the surcharged penalty plus £8 court registration fee because you were not served with the Notice of Enforcement:

https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-r...egulations-2014

If the enforcement agents - AKA bailiffs, there is no distinction - do not serve this, then they cannot claim their fee nor continue enforcing the warrant. Sheer b****y laziness IF DVLA held your correct address for service when the notice was issued.

Well, did they?

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Mariabelle
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:01
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 19:07) *
C'mon.

Let's think about what you did, or didn't do, shall we?

I registered address A with DVLA on ****.

Since when I've moved *** times and not updated my DVLA details/done it late or whatever.

The authority are REQUIRED to use DVLA info unless advised to the contrary.

You didn't twice i.e. update DVLA or notify the council.

Your fault.

Moving on..

The authority are permitted to continue to use your DVLA address and have no obligation to return to DVLA to see if errant RKs have decided to update their details.

This inevitably leads to the warrant of control being issued in respect of your DVLA address at the time of the contravention. It's not 'wrong', it's correct procedurally, it's you that's wrong in not keeping DVLA up to speed.

So, having sorted this out what's left?

IMO, you are only liable for the surcharged penalty plus £8 court registration fee because you were not served with the Notice of Enforcement:

https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-r...egulations-2014

If the enforcement agents - AKA bailiffs, there is no distinction - do not serve this, then they cannot claim their fee nor continue enforcing the warrant. Sheer b****y laziness IF DVLA held your correct address for service when the notice was issued.

Well, did they?


Yes, that's what I gather. But somehow it seems that I have to prove to TEC or Nottingham Court is it, that I never received these notices. And when I did try, I got my out of time to finish this statement rejected.

I lived in Kent until 20th November 2018 - the address they've been sending these notices to.
Then I was a resident in the Borough of Richmond, until 20th November 2019 - the time of the PCN, mind you resident of the same Borough issuing the fine, paying tax and registered to vote there, but I am aware that the two systems don't talk to each other.
Since then I'm living in Westminster, where they found and clamped my vehicle while I wasn't even at home.

Obviously, I don't have my old V5C book as you return them each time you update them, I have my current one with my Westminster address. Funnily enough I have my old drivers licence (around moving I never actually got to cut it and send it back) which shows DVLA had my Richmond address as of December 2018. It has a date of issue on it. Probably could fish out the letters for my car tax, have my council tax and parking permits issued on the basis of showing the updated V5C from that same council. It's one of the docs they require to give you a street parking permit, not just tenancy agreement.

So how am I supposed to make them remove the extra enforcement charges and get back to dealing with the PCN itself? Right now Richmond Council says it's in the hands of the enforcement agency, and I haven't heard a thing from them since the rejection of the OOT, but I've already asked them once to wave their fees since they understood the circumstance, I even gave them my current address, and they refused.

I guess the N244 is the way. I just need someone who knows what he's doing to help me with it.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:26
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www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

I hope you do realise that the situation is entirely of your own making. We see many people on here who have updated their V5s late but not years late. Of course the abolition of the car tax disc has made the situation worse. as it no longer drives the need to keep the V5 address up-to-date so as to receive the tax disc. Incidentally, how did you get your tax disc reminders ?
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Mariabelle
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:14
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:26) *
www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

I hope you do realise that the situation is entirely of your own making. We see many people on here who have updated their V5s late but not years late. Of course the abolition of the car tax disc has made the situation worse. as it no longer drives the need to keep the V5 address up-to-date so as to receive the tax disc. Incidentally, how did you get your tax disc reminders ?


No, quite the opposite. I didn't make anything but having to deal with inefficient administration.

I have updated my V5C every time I've moved as I just said in my previous post reply. That's the only way to get residential parking permit from local council, I've never been lucky to rent a place with a private garage, so I update it ASAP. That and my driving licence, and then get my parking permit. And I've done it twice since this address they've used and ages before the PCN happened so not sure where it went so wrong.

I pay my tax yearly and get my letters fine. That's what I'm saying, I have correspondence from dvla to all of these addresses on the relevant dates supporting that. So not sure why the council went with an old address. Not to mention the council itself has copies of my old V5C somewhere on the system, they just refuse to check from one department to another. I asked them how they verified the information and they couldn't say.

Just because that is their process doesn't make it any good or an efficient process if it costs me time and money. Especially if I have to be litigious to get it sorted. In this day and age where we all have online accounts and email addresses and they hold so much info about us on file, it really is a joke to not be able to check data in the system.

Not that I'm probably change anything in their process, but it's already cost me enough stress and anxiety wondering if my car won't be clamped again out of the blue one morning when I wake up, that I cannot justify giving up and paying up just because they've made the process hard or impossible for one to stand their right when they've made a mistake.

There must be a way. I thought I'd consult people who are more knowledgeable in the field.

You saying it's my fault when it isn't, is not helpful. It's like the council telling me they don't know whether the information they have is correct but they won't check it and correct it, and that is fine. It isn't fine. I need help with filing my N244 correctly as I hope my tec OOT was declined because it wasn't filed correctly for some reason and not because the council just won't admit a mistake. I just want to make sure this time it's done the right way so they stop messing me about, because they really is no reason for them to charge me enforcement fees.

And then I can get on the validity of the pcn itself.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:23
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The out of time process is designed to help people who update their V5C promptly and who get a PCN in a short window after a move.

It looks like you failed to update it for at least a year (which is also an offence).




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Mariabelle
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:36
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 22:23) *
The out of time process is designed to help people who update their V5C promptly and who get a PCN in a short window after a move.

It looks like you failed to update it for at least a year (which is also an offence).


I moved out from Kent in November 2018 to Richmond. With my move to Richmond I update my V5C and driving licence, my car insurance premium, and then with these three documents I applied to Richmond Council for parking permit for the year ahead. Of those documents I still have that drivers licence, and I still have the parking permit. I also have my insurance policy documents, car tax, council tax bill, utility bills etc. All dated to start from November or December. That's not months since I've moved.

The PCN was issued in June 2019, 7 months after that move and change of documents.

5 months later I moved again to my current address and again have all of the above documents dated November 2019 or December. 3 months after that, February this year my car gets clamped.

I didn't take years, but the council obviously don't update their systems and took them and their enforcement agency almost a year from June 2019 to February 2020 to act on an enforcement made based on old information. Not to contact me, find the correct address or refresh their database and recheck information. No, it took them 8 months to deprive me from my vehicle without a notice and make me pay 400 odd quid just because they didn't get the right address.

I politely asked first the enforcement agency and then the council to unclamp my car and I'd pay the original PCN, after I explained to them they had the wrong address, they refused. Mistakes happen, I get that. But I'm not paying for theirs. They're not racketeering me like this.

I'll find the right legal way to progress this. Thanks for all your help.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:45
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You said you lived in Kent until November 2018. The PCN was June 2019. You say the PCN went to the Kent address. That's at least 6 months with no update to the V5C.
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Neil B
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:56
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I kinda read briefly -- but it was difficult to be frank.

An N244 application to say what?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mariabelle
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 22:00
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 22:45) *
You said you lived in Kent until November 2018. The PCN was June 2019. You say the PCN went to the Kent address. That's at least 6 months with no update to the V5C.


Well, that's the thing. I had it updated. Rich.mond Council got it wrong out of somewhere. And then their enforcement agency didn't bother to check or recheck the info when they were given the case.

Either way, once they were both made aware of the situation, as I called, and wrote to both, they could have just dropped the silly charges and reissue the PCN. I offered them my current coordinates in case they get it confused with their checks. The agency didn't as they do what the council tells them, and the council didn't but sent me to tec. Where they refused me the right to file OOT statement. That is again the council making the decision funnily enough.

I need a third party to look at this because the council obviously do not wish to take responsibility. I've exhausted their complaints procedure since with no effect. One woman sending me nonsensical emails. I have these they are a fun read. After my first two phone calls with her I had to ask her to put it in writing because it is incredulous the ignorance going on there.

So basically, I need to do whatever the next step is to get this thing sorted back to PCN level, not enforcement. And then I'll be challenging the council. For denying me with the rights to challenge this charge in the first place, and then challenge it on top.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 22:56) *
I kinda read briefly -- but it was difficult to be frank.

An N244 application to say what?


To review the rejection of my OOT I submitted as I never received the PCN or the enforcement stage notices as the council and their enforcement agency used an old address of mine to send them to.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 23:04
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Best if you contact bailiffadviceonline as I posted up. Sheila is very good with preparing N244 submissions. Whilst the first Out-of-time is free, it is iinvariably rejected because the council will state they sent all the statutory documents to the V5 address as provided by DVLA. A papers-based review by a county court judge is £100, and "in chambers" interview £255.

You keep saying you have always updated your V5 when moving, but the fact is that postal PCNs (from CCTV), are sent to the name and address on the V5C for the vehicle. So - did you get a new V5 when you reported your change of address. Did you report change of driver licence and assume this would update your V5 (it doesnt).

Maybe we do come across as somewhat unsympathetic, so sorry. It's just that we see a significan number of cases where bailiffs are at the door and it comes down to the OP not updating their V5, or updating their driver licence thinking it updates the V5

It is important that you understand the councils are obliged to follow the regulations the same as you, so must use the DVLA record of your V5. So how did they get an old one ? That is the key question you need to find an answer to. Assuming you moved in NOv 2018. If you sent off the V5 update reasonably promptly, it should have been up-to-date at least by the end of January or maybe even February, but you have told us the original PCN was dated in June 2019, many months later, yet was sent to the old address. So when the council invoked the on-line request for the name and address of the keeper of the reg. number on their video, DVLA returned what their records held.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 23:06
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Mariabelle
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 05:55
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 00:04) *
Best if you contact bailiffadviceonline as I posted up. Sheila is very good with preparing N244 submissions. Whilst the first Out-of-time is free, it is iinvariably rejected because the council will state they sent all the statutory documents to the V5 address as provided by DVLA. A papers-based review by a county court judge is £100, and "in chambers" interview £255.

You keep saying you have always updated your V5 when moving, but the fact is that postal PCNs (from CCTV), are sent to the name and address on the V5C for the vehicle. So - did you get a new V5 when you reported your change of address. Did you report change of driver licence and assume this would update your V5 (it doesnt).

Maybe we do come across as somewhat unsympathetic, so sorry. It's just that we see a significan number of cases where bailiffs are at the door and it comes down to the OP not updating their V5, or updating their driver licence thinking it updates the V5

It is important that you understand the councils are obliged to follow the regulations the same as you, so must use the DVLA record of your V5. So how did they get an old one ? That is the key question you need to find an answer to. Assuming you moved in NOv 2018. If you sent off the V5 update reasonably promptly, it should have been up-to-date at least by the end of January or maybe even February, but you have told us the original PCN was dated in June 2019, many months later, yet was sent to the old address. So when the council invoked the on-line request for the name and address of the keeper of the reg. number on their video, DVLA returned what their records held.


Yes, thank you.
It's just really irritating that they won't check or double check their process to see where it all went wrong when I made them aware it is a mistake. They won't divulge how they got that address hiding behind gdpr and hiding their whole mistake and inefficiency behind that 'following of regulations' instead of just checking. Just because most cases are like this, doesn't mean mine is. And I really don't see why I have to jump through all these hoops to find out where they messed up.
But I guess I'd rather give 400 quid to a lawyer to find out than to Richmond Council and reward their way of doing things.
I guess I'm in a for legal education, and won't be doing any charitable work for any council from now on. Inefficiency ultimately leads to losses for all.

I'm consulting a local litigation firm this week. Thanks for the pointers.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 07:51
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Don't waste any money on lawyers, at least not yet. Get on the bailiffadvice site I gave you and see that you could do within the process. I can't see how a lawyer could help you at this moment in time.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 08:54
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Your out of time was rejected, this is because the council objected to it. No doubt on the grounds that they sent all the documents to the address held by DVLA.

If you have documents that will prove to a judge to a satisfactory standard that you did up date documents but there has been an admin error, then file anN244. If not you are likely to be throwing good money after bad

I'm not going to try to follow your convoluted time line and nor will a judge. You will have to be up front and clear


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Neil B
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 10:30
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You've said your OOT was refused, with no reason given. Did you receive a copy of Richmond's
objection to your application? If so, show us please.

You appear to be saying that on 20/6/19, when Richmond applied to DVLA for your details, those details
were fully correct at DVLA. Have you checked this fact with DVLA themselves?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 27 May 2020 - 10:52


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 11:23
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QUOTE (Mariabelle @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 23:00) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 22:56) *
I kinda read briefly -- but it was difficult to be frank.

An N244 application to say what?


To review the rejection of my OOT I submitted as I never received the PCN or the enforcement stage notices as the council and their enforcement agency used an old address of mine to send them to.

Well that's basically what an N244 asks for but it requires you to say something.
In section 10 you make a statement of your case but I'm not hearing anything.

You continue to blame Richmond but, as they've apparently explained and members here have confirmed, they can only
use the info given to them by DVLA.
You've only shown us a case history that confirms they did that. No explanation or evidence to support your assertion that
something went wrong.

I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 12:59
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 09:54) *
If you have documents that will prove to a judge to a satisfactory standard that you did up date documents but there has been an admin error, then file anN244.

Indeed, so let's have a look >
QUOTE (Mariabelle @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 22:36) *
I moved out from Kent in November 2018 to Richmond. With my move to Richmond I update my V5C and driving licence, my car insurance premium, and then with these three documents I applied to Richmond Council for parking permit for the year ahead.

So somewhere there is a copy on file of the V5C you used to obtain a permit.
How was that submitted? Is it perhaps still on your PC ? If an online application then perhaps it's viewable in a file in your permit account?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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