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Not the registered keeper?, Threads merged x3
banana0909
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 00:27
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I've just received a Letter before claim,(well actually it was issued on the 6th December 2018, but as we have moved house, I didn't get it until now, when they have somehow tracked me down) from a Parking ticket almost 3 years ago. That was placed on the registered keepers car by PCM, for some reason, the company and now solicitors have decided to chase me for the ticket, but I'm not the registered keeper and I probably wasn't the driver at the time. I did write the initial appeal to the company, but when we went through the official appeal, to the so called independent body, the registered keeper declaired himself as the registered keeper and wrote the appeal on that site. We lost the appeal, And then heard nothing from them until now, potentially because we moved house, only a few months after the ticket was issued.

The registered keeper of the vehicle was never issued with a notice to keeper, they've never actually attempted to contact the registered keeper.

The ticket was issued at outside our home, at 4am on a Sunday morning, 5 days after the permit was due for renewal and they had only sent one renewal reminder, 2 months previous, we along with most other residents (judging by the vast amount of parking tickets on car that morning) simply forgot to renew. The next day we brought our years permit, Which only runs from the start of the term anyway, so it's not like we didn't pay, or ever intended not to pay, it was a simple oversight.

Not really sure what to do about it now? should I just tell them I was not the registered keeper or the driver of the vehicle. I assume they will then come after the registered keeper, not sure if at that point we can say the notice to keeper was never issued?

Thanks

This post has been edited by banana0909: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:06
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post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 00:27
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The Rookie
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 07:21
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They presumably got your name from somewhere. is the permit in your name?

In terms of the LBC you need to make sure you get any court claim form as they get a default judgement just 19 days after its issued.

First step is to write to them TODAY, acknowledge receipt, provide YOUR (your the one its sent to) new address and state you only just got the LBC and a full reply will be forthcoming.

Perhaps tell us the basis for the issue, no permit I get but presumably someone authorised to park there, so work or residential?
Was the appeal in response to a notice on the car or by post?

EDIT your post above, refer to the registered keeper as 'the keeper', the driver as 'the driver' (even if it may be the same person they are different legally) and yourself for want of better wording as 'the defendant' as your neither of the other two. Its important to never give any hint as t drivers ID and in this case the Keepers ID.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 07:23


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banana0909
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:03
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So Car was parked outside the registered keepers house, Permit was due for renewal on the 1st June 2016, the registered keeper only got one confirmation dated in April, saying the permit was due for renewal, this was in the form of a hand delivered letter, which was just forgotten about, along with most of the residents of the estate. As when I woke up on The whole estate had a ticket on their car window.

The way the permits worked was they are valid 1st June - 1st June, you can't buy a pro rata ticket, you get it for the whole year, and pay the full amount regardless. So when the registered keeper did buy the permit the next day, it was valid from the 1st June. The ticket was for the 5th June (Sunday morning at 4am, in the hours of darkness) So how could the landowner could have lost any money because we paid for the full year.

The house, car, permit are/were all owned by the registered keeper of the vehicle. Technically was no driver, as the car was parked outside the registered keepers home, in the middle of the night and I found the ticket on the car but no idea who was the last person to drive the car was.

I wrote the initial response to the ticket Just a general email to them, saying it was just an oversight.

They told they don't have any responsibility to remind us to renew our permits.

So I went to send in an appeal to the appeal body but at that point because on the form it states "I am the registered keeper" I informed the registered keeper that he must write the appeal. So he wrote the appeal declairing he was the registered keeper. We originally tried to appeal on the fact it was the middle of the night when we were ticketed and the sign was not illuminated. But not sure this would stand as we have admitted we knew we needed a permit, but in fairness, we weren't really expecting a ticket and as I had always believed parking at my home as a resident was allowed and we were not aware we didn't have a valid permit. The sign at the entrance of the estate simply says "resisdent parking only". We were aware a permit was needed as we had one from the year before in the car, but had no idea, the parking company were this scrupilous.

The registered keeper then appealed to the company, stating he was the registered keeper and the appeal was declined.

Then we heard nothing from them, and we moved house at the end of 2016, and have recently just moved again to our new house.

The registered keeper has never received any communications from them.

Thanks

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The Rookie
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:28
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So this is a residential case, what provides you the right to park there? Do you pay for a permit or is it just displayed for their convenience as you have a right to park their anyway?


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:53
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If you were neither the keeper or the driver, then you need to tell them that
State if they disagree you require them to supply you with any evidence they have to the contrary
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banana0909
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:29
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Yes residential, We had a shared ownership home, so the land was owned by the company that owned half our home. I'm not sure what the actual lease on the property said but (i'm going to try and find it), I know we were entitiled to apply for one parking permit per residential property. Which we had to pay for £25 per year and renew annually. But the spaces are not allocated to a specific house, you could park in any of the marked bays. We were also allowed a visitors permit, which had no expiry on it. Technically the visitors permit could only be used in marked bays with a V sign but. They were not so strict on this. So if we were actually trying to not renew our permit, We could have just used the visitor permit on the car. We didn't use the car every day as both of us walked/biked to work.

Parking on the estate was managed by two seperate private parking firms as their where multiple land owners, it was a massive estate, the entrance to the estate displays signs saying "resident parking only" Then as you enter the estate the other private parking company has signs. In our section managed by PCM, PCM did display their signs. I had never read them as I just assumed as a resident, with a permit I could park their.
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ostell
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 14:17
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So what required you to buy a permit? Even though it is shared ownership there must be a leas somewhere.
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banana0909
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 14:36
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I'm going to write to them first to say I am not the registered keeper and I was not the driver, And if they have any evidence stating otherwise to please inform me.

Do I send a letter to them, there doesn't seem to be an email address, only to log onto the solicitors website and the only option I have to to send an enquiry. So do I send an enquiry or write a letter?

Am I also within my rights to ask them to remove my details from their system, I'm just thinking in terms of GDPR, do they have any right to hold my data without my consent? they should be chasing the registered keeper not me.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 15:07
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Write a letter
first class, free proof of posting from a post office. No, no other method.
Have you gotten out of this thread and read up? Any obvious searches?
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banana0909
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:04
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I've just noticed in the Letter before claim, that was sent to my new address, they have said:

Proceedings will be served on you at the address in the atttached letter if we do not receive payment in 14 days. (which would be the 21st Jan)

The attached letter is at my old address. I assumed now they had my new address they would serve any court papers to my new address?
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Redivi
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 00:02
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If they haven't sent you the reply form for the Pre-action Protocol for Debt Claims, download a copy

Fill in your name and address
Include a covering letter that they must use that address and, if they use the old address, you will rely on the letter to hold PCM liable for the full costs to set aside a default judgment plus damages for any impact on your credit record
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ostell
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 08:58
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QUOTE (banana0909 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:04) *
I've just noticed in the Letter before claim, that was sent to my new address, they have said:

Proceedings will be served on you at the address in the attached letter if we do not receive payment in 14 days. (which would be the 21st Jan)

The attached letter is at my old address. I assumed now they had my new address they would serve any court papers to my new address?


Complain to the SRA (solicitors regulation authority) that one of their members is threatenting to serve court papers to an address that they know is not correct in an attempt to get a default judgement.
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banana0909
post Thu, 7 Mar 2019 - 15:21
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Ok So I responded to the claim stating I was not the registered keeper or the driver and they have attached my first appeal saying:

"In the appeal I refer to myself as the driver" - Which I do but not on the specific day, and I didn't actually specify I was the last person to drive it - As it is residential ticket so actually I was asleep when they issued the ticket at 4.17am - I didn't use the car very often as I walked or cycled to work at the time. I actually don't think there is a driver in this instance, because the car was parked at home.

The Car was mostly driven by the registered keeper, not myself. But I discovered the ticket and took it upon myself to reply to the PCN.

They have also stated:

"One would also question why, if the vehicle is not yours, you are renewing and requesting a permit for said vehicle."

As in the appeal I talk about forgetting to renew "my" permit. In actual fact I didn't renew the permit, the registered keeper did, But as we lived at the same address and one permit is permitted per house, I don't really suppose it matters who renews the permit?

Anyway - once they declined the appeal we appealed to the appeal body they recommended at which point on the form it asked the person filling in the form to declare they are the registered keeper and the driver - At which point I thought I would step aside being neither the driver or the registered keeper and the registered keeper filled out the online appeal form with the appeal body. Stating He was the registered keeper and the driver of the vehicle.

My main question is what should I do next -

They have sent me an email basically saying the above and then some payment details and asking for me to pay it - The header of the email has a PCM v (MYNAME) and a reference number - but there are no official papers nor have I received an official claim. Only the LBC.

So what should my next step be in response to this letter which states in 30days if no payment is received further legal action will be taken.

Thanks



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Sheffield Dave
post Thu, 7 Mar 2019 - 15:35
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The driver is the person who was in control of the vehicle at the moment it was parked - i.e. the person who (allegedly) chose to enter into a contract with the PPC
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banana0909
post Thu, 7 Mar 2019 - 15:48
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We don't actually know who the driver was - "The person who actually parked the car" As we did not use the car very often. The registered keeper of the vehicle drives the car 95% of the time. I found the ticket as I left the house to go for a walk on the Sunday Morning so even then I was not driving it.

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banana0909
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 16:29
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I received a claim form today from the county court, I have already submitted my acknowledgement online and now I need to start preparing my defence.

I just wanted some advice on which is the best defence.

Here are the facts:

I found a PCN on the registered keepers car on the morning of 5/6/2016, the car was parked in a resident parking bay at the registered keepers house, the registered keeper had forgotten to renew the permit which had expired on the 1/6/2016.

I also used the car occasionally and also was a resident at the property, I responded to the original PCN having been the person to find it, While I didn't explicitly say in the original appeal, that I was the driver I did refer to myself as driving the car and forgetting to renew the pass, I also refer to it as MY car. But in retrospect I don't even know why I did this as it is not my car or my responsibility to renew the permit and we used the car so infrequently neither of us are sure who the driver was. Technically no-one had driven anywhere becasue the car was parked at home.

Once they denied our first appeal, we went through the second appeal stage and on this form it asked for the registered keeper and driver to indentified themselves - at this point, we realised it shouldn't be me as I was neither the registered keeper or the driver - I just happened to find the ticket so at this stage, I have a copy of it the registered keeper has logged into the appeal form and stated that they are the registered keeper and the driver.

My question is - Is the copy of the screen shot of the appeal form where the registered keeper and driver has indentified themselves enough evidence that I was not the registered keeper or the driver - or do I need a better defence, part of me just thinks as the registered keeper and driver has identified themselves - surely this is enough of a defence. They have never sent any communication to the registered keeper or driver.

Not sure what to do.

Thanks
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ostell
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 17:30
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This the second today where the PPC have claimed from someone that was not the owner, keeper or driver of the car.

You must now write to the solicitors and point out that you were not the owner, keeper nor driver of the car and can show that this is true. You also understand the registered keeper and driver have already been identified in an appeal. They therefore have no claim against you and invite them to withdraw the claim to avoid unneccessary costs.

If you wait till the actual appearance in court to ambush them with those facts you may win the case but may have to pay the other sides costs because you ambushed them.
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Redivi
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 17:46
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At least this OP hasn't submitted a defence yet

Gladstones has never seen any of its clients documents and has no idea what the claim is about
Instead of writing to Gladstones I would simply write a defence that denies being the keeper or driver

Plus the usual defence points for residential cases including why no permit is needed

This post has been edited by Redivi: Thu, 9 May 2019 - 17:47
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banana0909
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 19:07
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Thanks, I have read the other post - I have already written to the solicitor confirming I was not the registered keeper and not the driver, when I got the LBC, They replied stating I admitted I was the driver in the original letter when I said "I had forgotten to renew my pass" they said why would someone who did not own the car, renew a pass for it" The original letter perhaps was confusing, I don't even know why I did it, at the time I was just helping the registered keeper out. And as it turns out it was not me who renewed the pass anyway. In the second appeal we were clear that I was not the driver or registered keeper, and the registered keeper identified themselves to them I have a copy of this- however they continued to chase me. They seem to be relying on the first appeal only and ignoring the second appeal - Which I'm not sure they have as I asked them to supply evidence they only supplied my original appeal letter.

I'll have a go at writing my defence.
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banana0909
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 16:01
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Hi,

I'm prepairing my defence for a court case, I've got most of it together, but one point I'm considering adding is around the definition of a driver. I've tried searching what is the UK law definition of a driver and not getting much back, maybe I'm looking in the wrong place - so if people have any references / cases that could help me.

The PPC are claiming I am the driver because I wrote the first appeal (which does not admit I drove), it's not my car, and I probably wasn't the driver because the registered keeper drives the car 99% of the time, plus the space the car is parked in is not where I normally parked when I drove the car, And this was 4 years ago so we don't really remember anyway.

Basically the ticket was issued at 4.03am on a residential property, therefore I was at home asleep and wondering if I can use this as a defence because how can I be a driver - if I'm asleep and techincally have not gone anywhere. but not sure how to best phrase this / use in my defence.

P.s I already have the standard residential defences, and a lease that states we can park in communial areas - but would like a few back up points in case some of my defence falls through.

Thanks
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