PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Bus Lane (unmarked?), permits and PCN
mallinky
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:18
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 1 Nov 2009
Member No.: 33,336



PCN was issued within a few days of me driving unaware into a bus lane.

There were no road markings at all and nothing with the words 'bus lane'.
There were two prominent 'No Motor Vehicles' signs with text sign beneath - stating time-of-day limits and the words "...except buses, wheelchair accessible taxis & permit holders'.
(as it happens we were about 20 minutes outside the 'permitted period'!)

We have a blue disabled badge 'permit' and I took 'permit holders' to mean just that.
The 'lane' leads to bus stops, pedestrianised shopping and immediately to about 10 disabled parking bays. (We had a semi-urgent visit to the nearby NHS Walk-in clinic).
Having now read many pages of council bus-lane waffle, they will likely contend that they mean 'bus-lane permit holders'.

Given that I didn't even know it was a bus lane until the PCN arrived, the signage must be questionable(?)
(Highway Code says bus lanes will be indicated by road markings AND signage).

Had I seen words like 'bus lane', 'bus lane permits only' or 'camera' I would have behaved differently!






Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 16)
Advertisement
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:18
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:26
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,951
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Reinstate all dates and location on the PCN.

Show us the Google Street View.

is there another route into the disabled bays?

'Bus lane' wording on PCN is standard for a variety of bus gates etc.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:32
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,237
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Well as you are finding out, the law is a complete ASS when it comes to what is a bus lane. Unfortunately adjudications and, indeed, a High Court decision I believe, are against you, as one of the classes of traffic allowed is buses, ergo the street becomes a "bus lane" despite what the Highway Code may say. Whilst I find the situation as distressing as yourself, our "Lords and Masters" are at 40,000 feet at the moment so don't expect any changes soon to make it all clear,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 10:40
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,793
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



There are errors on the PCN. reading fight any claim to this so it would go to adjudication at risk of the full penalty. I would fight it but have both won and lost in the past on these.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mallinky
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:26
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 1 Nov 2009
Member No.: 33,336



Thanks for the pointers Stamfordman.
Here's the less redacted PCN with some Streetviews.

This is the only access to those bays and here's the Streetview...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4543527,-...3312!8i6656

The other two possible access roads are much more clearly marked no-go!
Both have totally different signage with Bus lane road markings, blue bus-only signs and no mention of 'permit-holder' exceptions.

1. From the West - nogo
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.455235,-0...3312!8i6656

2. From the North/East - nogo
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.456741,-0...3312!8i6656

The disabled bays themselves show a broader parking period (5am - 8pm) - but effectively, are then daytime accessible only from 11am-4pm?




Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:58
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,951
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



These signs are just near - how do get there?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4554564,-...3312!8i6656
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mallinky
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 16:21
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 1 Nov 2009
Member No.: 33,336



Swivel right on your view and go down behind the silver taxi. The disabled bays are immediately on your left and the 'bus lane' starts (coming towards you) just after Pizza Express.
So, do a U-turn at the purple bus and you'll see what I drove through.

Maybe the council will cancel when I declare the blue badge... and maybe not!
I haven't challenged it yet.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 16:44
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,951
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Well the appeal seems straightforward - you are a permit holder and you legitimately gained access to a BB permit bay.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mallinky
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 16:58
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 1 Nov 2009
Member No.: 33,336



Maybe not sad.gif I've just found this doc. BB holders are apparently not exempt.

It would seem my only challenge is then the signage and ambiguity of 'permit holder'.
(Official websites commonly refer to BBs as 'permits').
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:06
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,951
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (mallinky @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:58) *
Maybe not sad.gif I've just found this doc. BB holders are apparently not exempt.

It would seem my only challenge is then the signage and ambiguity of 'permit holder'.
(Official websites commonly refer to BBs as 'permits').



I can't see how you can work out that you can't drive to those bays as a BB holder from the signage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
666
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:11
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,004
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,602



That is not a bus lane by any stretch of the imagination. The signs are "No motor vehicles".

Leaving aside any question of exemption, Shirley the charge should be failure to comply with a traffic sign?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mallinky
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 18:39
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 1 Nov 2009
Member No.: 33,336



Apparently it is a bus lane - if they say it may be used only by buses... and some others!

Transport Act S.144 (5)
(5) And an area of road is or forms part of a bus lane if the order provides that it may be used—
(a) only by buses (or a particular description of bus), or
(b) only by buses (or a particular description of bus) and some other class or classes of vehicular traffic.

I would dearly love to challenge their assumption that I should know what 'permit holders' means.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 18:41
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,793
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (666 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 18:11) *
That is not a bus lane by any stretch of the imagination. The signs are "No motor vehicles".

Leaving aside any question of exemption, Shirley the charge should be failure to comply with a traffic sign?



The signs are legal when other access is allowed. An argument can be made that the sign does not identify permit types and with the proximity of the BB bays a reasonable assumption that BB holders were exempted can be made. The technical points have in the past encoura-ged a finding re signs etc
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mallinky
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:34
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 1 Nov 2009
Member No.: 33,336



Also, what about absence of camera warning signs?

Admittedly only 'guidance' but this from the DOT in 2005...

Provisional guidance on bus lane (including tramway) enforcement in England outside London

4.10. Local Authorities should check that signs comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, are up to date, consistent with the Traffic Regulation Orders and are properly and visibly mounted. This will avoid challenges on the grounds of inadequate, inconsistent or defective signing. Drivers and riders need to be alerted to the fact that cameras are being used to enforce bus lanes and before enforcement can commence, camera enforcement signs should be erected in each of the areas to be covered by the system to advise motorists that camera enforcement is in place and to encourage compliance. Signs informing road users about camera enforcement must conform to diagrams 878 and 879 in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:59
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,793
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (mallinky @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:34) *
Also, what about absence of camera warning signs?

Admittedly only 'guidance' but this from the DOT in 2005...

Provisional guidance on bus lane (including tramway) enforcement in England outside London

4.10. Local Authorities should check that signs comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, are up to date, consistent with the Traffic Regulation Orders and are properly and visibly mounted. This will avoid challenges on the grounds of inadequate, inconsistent or defective signing. Drivers and riders need to be alerted to the fact that cameras are being used to enforce bus lanes and before enforcement can commence, camera enforcement signs should be erected in each of the areas to be covered by the system to advise motorists that camera enforcement is in place and to encourage compliance. Signs informing road users about camera enforcement must conform to diagrams 878 and 879 in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002



not a winner
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:37
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,793
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



This might give a ground

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ding/RG173B.pdf


If the TMO does not list it as a bus lane, they cannot enforce with a camera, I will expand in the next day or so if no one else does
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:47
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,661
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



There are various grounds in this thread:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=121554

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Wednesday, 24th October 2018 - 06:03
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.