PCN for Code 34 Being in a bus lane. Stoke-on-Trent |
PCN for Code 34 Being in a bus lane. Stoke-on-Trent |
Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 11:40
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
Hi,
My other half went to Hanley fire station (in Stoke-on-Trent) in December and now received. He spoke with the person who he went to meet who told him several people who visit the station end up falling foul of the bus lane but unfortunately wasn't able to help any further. He admits he probably missed the sign and it's not a case of they weren't clear etc. We're thinking of appealing but the letter states that if we do so we lose the 50% discount (so the fine is £60 instead of £30). Is it worth appealing or should we just pay whilst it's still £30? P.S the car is a lease hence the why we've only just received the letter. [attachment=61416:Front.jpg] [attachment=61417:back.jpg] |
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Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 11:40
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Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 12:00
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
This is from an appeal made some time ago
b. Within the PCN it states “To claim a discounted rate of 50% to £30.00 the reduced penalty charge must be paid within 14 days …You cannot pay the discounted rate and make representations at the same time. Representations, if made, are against the £60.00 penalty charge”. Mr. AAAA submits this is contrary to the regulations because the regulations do not say representations can only be made against the £60.00 and that provided payment is made within 14 days, the Council is obliged to accept the reduced amount. Mr. AAAA submitted this particular section has a potential of causing real prejudice to the motorist because if representations are submitted and then within the 14 day period the motorists thinks better of it, he may choose not to pay what would still be a reduced amount; And the adjudicators finding on it 0.What concerns me in this particular case is the wording in relation to representations: “To claim a discounted rate of 50% to £30.00 the reduced penalty charge must be paid within 14 days …You cannot pay the discounted rate and make representations at the same time. Representations, if made, are against the £60.00 penalty charge”. There are two significant errors in this statement: a. A motorist does not claim a discount – it is his as of right by paying within 14 days; and, b. The submission of representations does not in itself remove the right of the motorist to pay the reduced amount. If the Council considers any representations promptly enough and manages to inform the person making them before the 14 days expires I believe the motorist can still make payment of the reduced sum if he does so within 14 days of the issue of the PCN. 11.It seems the Council is confusing the submission of representations with the making of an appeal. Representations are made to the Council, appeals are made to this Tribunal. A motorist cannot appeal and then expect to pay the reduced sum, but it does seem that if time permits he can still pay the reduced amount following unsuccessful representations. Your PCN contains the same flaw. so you have a valid ground to appeal -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 12:44
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
This is from an appeal made some time ago b. Within the PCN it states “To claim a discounted rate of 50% to £30.00 the reduced penalty charge must be paid within 14 days …You cannot pay the discounted rate and make representations at the same time. Representations, if made, are against the £60.00 penalty charge”. Mr. AAAA submits this is contrary to the regulations because the regulations do not say representations can only be made against the £60.00 and that provided payment is made within 14 days, the Council is obliged to accept the reduced amount. Mr. AAAA submitted this particular section has a potential of causing real prejudice to the motorist because if representations are submitted and then within the 14 day period the motorists thinks better of it, he may choose not to pay what would still be a reduced amount; And the adjudicators finding on it 0.What concerns me in this particular case is the wording in relation to representations: “To claim a discounted rate of 50% to £30.00 the reduced penalty charge must be paid within 14 days …You cannot pay the discounted rate and make representations at the same time. Representations, if made, are against the £60.00 penalty charge”. There are two significant errors in this statement: a. A motorist does not claim a discount – it is his as of right by paying within 14 days; and, b. The submission of representations does not in itself remove the right of the motorist to pay the reduced amount. If the Council considers any representations promptly enough and manages to inform the person making them before the 14 days expires I believe the motorist can still make payment of the reduced sum if he does so within 14 days of the issue of the PCN. 11.It seems the Council is confusing the submission of representations with the making of an appeal. Representations are made to the Council, appeals are made to this Tribunal. A motorist cannot appeal and then expect to pay the reduced sum, but it does seem that if time permits he can still pay the reduced amount following unsuccessful representations. Your PCN contains the same flaw. so you have a valid ground to appeal Brill, thank you so much PASTMYBEST. |
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Fri, 1 Feb 2019 - 10:48
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Just for reference, the case is Mr v Conentry City Council (case reference CV 06680L) and you will find a copy here: http://bit.ly/2Dg6k1q
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 1 Feb 2019 - 15:10
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#5
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP---look for other Stoke cases in this forum.
I note at the top of the PCN it says approved devices under the parking legislation---not on if we are dealing with a bus lane!! IIRC there were flaws in the Stoke PCN--some of which have already been pointed out. Mick |
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Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 13:37
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
Thanks all. Had a read re: other Stoke case as Mad Mick V suggested and they were extremely useful and some were about the exact street. Posted my appeal today so i'll wait to see with what they come back with.
Again, thank you so much for the advice. |
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Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 13:48
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
As a general rule you should always post a copy of your representations on here before sending them to the council.
This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 13:48 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 17:43
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
Received the below from Stoke-On-Trent City Council. I guess I'm going to have to make a formal representation, I'll post of here before I send it (sorry I'd already sent my first appeal before I saw CP8759's post but I have attached what I sent). Are they right about legislation? Also I don't understand how on their original letter they say if I appeal I lose the discounted rate but they have now said I can still pay the discounted rate.
[attachment=62006:20190222_163111.jpg] [attachment=62007:appeal.PNG] |
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Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 18:02
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
No the next thing you do is pay the £30 or wait for the notice of rejection and then appeal to the adjudicator. That letter is a non procedural step that can be argued is an unlawful demand for payment
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 19:20
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
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Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 19:23
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
No the next thing you do is pay the £30 or wait for the notice of rejection and then appeal to the adjudicator. That letter is a non procedural step that can be argued is an unlawful demand for payment Ah ok, I'll wait for the notice of rejection. Thanks good you have a fair shot -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 14 May 2019 - 09:51
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
Received the below from Stoke-On-Trent City Council. I guess I'm going to have to make a formal representation, I'll post of here before I send it (sorry I'd already sent my first appeal before I saw CP8759's post but I have attached what I sent). Are they right about legislation? Also I don't understand how on their original letter they say if I appeal I lose the discounted rate but they have now said I can still pay the discounted rate. [attachment=62006:20190222_163111.jpg] [attachment=62007:appeal.PNG] So couple of weeks have passed and I haven't received any notice of rejection from SOT council, the only thing I got was the non procedural letter asking for money. Anyway yesterday, I got the attached. Is my best step now to get in contact with them and ask them for an official notice of rejection or is there any another approach? Thanks. [attachment=64044:20190514_103857.jpg] |
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Tue, 14 May 2019 - 11:45
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
This is getting messy. the council think they have sent a NOR but you have not responded so have now sent the CC. Next form is an order for recovery. That must not be missed.
All the responses we have seen from the council, they are entitled to send to the driver ( if they are entitled at all) The NOR MUST be sent to the address they receive from the DVLA as the address of the RK. IS this you. Is the v5c (logbook) held by you? Are the name and address correct ( the same as your address) Don't assume check -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 14 May 2019 - 13:15
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
This is getting messy. the council think they have sent a NOR but you have not responded so have now sent the CC. Next form is an order for recovery. That must not be missed. All the responses we have seen from the council, they are entitled to send to the driver ( if they are entitled at all) The NOR MUST be sent to the address they receive from the DVLA as the address of the RK. IS this you. Is the v5c (logbook) held by you? Are the name and address correct ( the same as your address) Don't assume check Thanks Pastmybest. No, the car is a lease car and I don't hold the the v5c nor is it in my name. |
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Tue, 14 May 2019 - 13:35
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Is the PCN and the CC in your name?
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 14 May 2019 - 16:21
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
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Tue, 14 May 2019 - 16:34
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Is the PCN and the CC in your name? yeah both in my name. so what happened to the NOR? What you need to do now is wait for a document called the order for recovery. With that you can make a statutory declaration that you did not receive a notice of rejection. This will revoke the CC and the council will be required to refer to the tribunal, who will set the case down for appeal. The letter from the authority telling you they will send a NOR to the RK is outside the process and has been prejudicial to you and might help you win. Do not contact the council just follow procedure -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 15 May 2019 - 06:23
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
Is the PCN and the CC in your name? yeah both in my name. so what happened to the NOR? What you need to do now is wait for a document called the order for recovery. With that you can make a statutory declaration that you did not receive a notice of rejection. This will revoke the CC and the council will be required to refer to the tribunal, who will set the case down for appeal. The letter from the authority telling you they will send a NOR to the RK is outside the process and has been prejudicial to you and might help you win. Do not contact the council just follow procedure The last letter I received from them (before the one sent 2 days ago) was the letter I posted here on 22nd Feb, I haven't had a NOR. I'll wait for the order for recovery. How long does this normally take, I worry that I don't get anything and then it gets escalated as they would claim I missed that step of the process and there's no going back. |
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Wed, 15 May 2019 - 08:10
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
If you have not heard anything after 3 weeks contact the council, ask them when will you issue the order for recovery. Nothing else do not get into a discussion with them about the PCN
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 15 May 2019 - 12:41
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
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