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PCN for Code 34 Being in a bus lane. Stoke-on-Trent
janeta33
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 11:40
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Hi,

My other half went to Hanley fire station (in Stoke-on-Trent) in December and now received. He spoke with the person who he went to meet who told him several people who visit the station end up falling foul of the bus lane but unfortunately wasn't able to help any further. He admits he probably missed the sign and it's not a case of they weren't clear etc. We're thinking of appealing but the letter states that if we do so we lose the 50% discount (so the fine is £60 instead of £30). Is it worth appealing or should we just pay whilst it's still £30?

P.S the car is a lease hence the why we've only just received the letter.

[attachment=61416:Front.jpg]
[attachment=61417:back.jpg]

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post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 11:40
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 12:00
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This is from an appeal made some time ago

b. Within the PCN it states “To claim a discounted rate of 50% to
£30.00 the reduced penalty charge must be paid within 14 days
…You cannot pay the discounted rate and make representations at
the same time. Representations, if made, are against the £60.00 penalty charge”. Mr. AAAA submits this is contrary to the
regulations because the regulations do not say representations can
only be made against the £60.00 and that provided payment is
made within 14 days, the Council is obliged to accept the reduced
amount. Mr. AAAA submitted this particular section has a potential
of causing real prejudice to the motorist because if representations
are submitted and then within the 14 day period the motorists thinks
better of it, he may choose not to pay what would still be a reduced
amount;



And the adjudicators finding on it

0.What concerns me in this particular case is the wording in relation to
representations: “To claim a discounted rate of 50% to £30.00 the reduced
penalty charge must be paid within 14 days …You cannot pay the
discounted rate and make representations at the same time.
Representations, if made, are against the £60.00 penalty charge”. There
are two significant errors in this statement:


a. A motorist does not claim a discount – it is his as of right by paying
within 14 days; and,


b. The submission of representations does not in itself remove the right
of the motorist to pay the reduced amount. If the Council considers
any representations promptly enough and manages to inform the
person making them before the 14 days expires I believe the
motorist can still make payment of the reduced sum if he does so
within 14 days of the issue of the PCN.


11.It seems the Council is confusing the submission of representations with
the making of an appeal. Representations are made to the Council, appeals
are made to this Tribunal. A motorist cannot appeal and then expect to pay
the reduced sum, but it does seem that if time permits he can still pay the
reduced amount following unsuccessful representations.





Your PCN contains the same flaw. so you have a valid ground to appeal


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janeta33
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 12:44
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 12:00) *
This is from an appeal made some time ago

b. Within the PCN it states “To claim a discounted rate of 50% to
£30.00 the reduced penalty charge must be paid within 14 days
…You cannot pay the discounted rate and make representations at
the same time. Representations, if made, are against the £60.00 penalty charge”. Mr. AAAA submits this is contrary to the
regulations because the regulations do not say representations can
only be made against the £60.00 and that provided payment is
made within 14 days, the Council is obliged to accept the reduced
amount. Mr. AAAA submitted this particular section has a potential
of causing real prejudice to the motorist because if representations
are submitted and then within the 14 day period the motorists thinks
better of it, he may choose not to pay what would still be a reduced
amount;



And the adjudicators finding on it

0.What concerns me in this particular case is the wording in relation to
representations: “To claim a discounted rate of 50% to £30.00 the reduced
penalty charge must be paid within 14 days …You cannot pay the
discounted rate and make representations at the same time.
Representations, if made, are against the £60.00 penalty charge”. There
are two significant errors in this statement:


a. A motorist does not claim a discount – it is his as of right by paying
within 14 days; and,


b. The submission of representations does not in itself remove the right
of the motorist to pay the reduced amount. If the Council considers
any representations promptly enough and manages to inform the
person making them before the 14 days expires I believe the
motorist can still make payment of the reduced sum if he does so
within 14 days of the issue of the PCN.


11.It seems the Council is confusing the submission of representations with
the making of an appeal. Representations are made to the Council, appeals
are made to this Tribunal. A motorist cannot appeal and then expect to pay
the reduced sum, but it does seem that if time permits he can still pay the
reduced amount following unsuccessful representations.





Your PCN contains the same flaw. so you have a valid ground to appeal


Brill, thank you so much PASTMYBEST.
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cp8759
post Fri, 1 Feb 2019 - 10:48
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Just for reference, the case is Mr v Conentry City Council (case reference CV 06680L) and you will find a copy here: http://bit.ly/2Dg6k1q


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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 1 Feb 2019 - 15:10
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OP---look for other Stoke cases in this forum.

I note at the top of the PCN it says approved devices under the parking legislation---not on if we are dealing with a bus lane!!

IIRC there were flaws in the Stoke PCN--some of which have already been pointed out.

Mick
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janeta33
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 13:37
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Thanks all. Had a read re: other Stoke case as Mad Mick V suggested and they were extremely useful and some were about the exact street. Posted my appeal today so i'll wait to see with what they come back with.

Again, thank you so much for the advice.
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cp8759
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 13:48
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As a general rule you should always post a copy of your representations on here before sending them to the council.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 13:48


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janeta33
post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 17:43
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Received the below from Stoke-On-Trent City Council. I guess I'm going to have to make a formal representation, I'll post of here before I send it (sorry I'd already sent my first appeal before I saw CP8759's post but I have attached what I sent). Are they right about legislation? Also I don't understand how on their original letter they say if I appeal I lose the discounted rate but they have now said I can still pay the discounted rate.


[attachment=62006:20190222_163111.jpg]

[attachment=62007:appeal.PNG]
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 18:02
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No the next thing you do is pay the £30 or wait for the notice of rejection and then appeal to the adjudicator. That letter is a non procedural step that can be argued is an unlawful demand for payment


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janeta33
post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 19:20
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 18:02) *
No the next thing you do is pay the £30 or wait for the notice of rejection and then appeal to the adjudicator. That letter is a non procedural step that can be argued is an unlawful demand for payment


Ah ok, I'll wait for the notice of rejection. Thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 19:23
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QUOTE (janeta33 @ Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 19:20) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 18:02) *
No the next thing you do is pay the £30 or wait for the notice of rejection and then appeal to the adjudicator. That letter is a non procedural step that can be argued is an unlawful demand for payment


Ah ok, I'll wait for the notice of rejection. Thanks


good you have a fair shot


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janeta33
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 09:51
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QUOTE (janeta33 @ Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 18:43) *
Received the below from Stoke-On-Trent City Council. I guess I'm going to have to make a formal representation, I'll post of here before I send it (sorry I'd already sent my first appeal before I saw CP8759's post but I have attached what I sent). Are they right about legislation? Also I don't understand how on their original letter they say if I appeal I lose the discounted rate but they have now said I can still pay the discounted rate.


[attachment=62006:20190222_163111.jpg]

[attachment=62007:appeal.PNG]



So couple of weeks have passed and I haven't received any notice of rejection from SOT council, the only thing I got was the non procedural letter asking for money. Anyway yesterday, I got the attached. Is my best step now to get in contact with them and ask them for an official notice of rejection or is there any another approach? Thanks.


[attachment=64044:20190514_103857.jpg]
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 11:45
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This is getting messy. the council think they have sent a NOR but you have not responded so have now sent the CC. Next form is an order for recovery. That must not be missed.

All the responses we have seen from the council, they are entitled to send to the driver ( if they are entitled at all) The NOR MUST be sent to the address they receive from the DVLA as the address of the RK.

IS this you. Is the v5c (logbook) held by you? Are the name and address correct ( the same as your address) Don't assume check


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janeta33
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 13:15
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 14 May 2019 - 12:45) *
This is getting messy. the council think they have sent a NOR but you have not responded so have now sent the CC. Next form is an order for recovery. That must not be missed.

All the responses we have seen from the council, they are entitled to send to the driver ( if they are entitled at all) The NOR MUST be sent to the address they receive from the DVLA as the address of the RK.

IS this you. Is the v5c (logbook) held by you? Are the name and address correct ( the same as your address) Don't assume check


Thanks Pastmybest.

No, the car is a lease car and I don't hold the the v5c nor is it in my name.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 13:35
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Is the PCN and the CC in your name?


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janeta33
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 16:21
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 14 May 2019 - 14:35) *
Is the PCN and the CC in your name?


yeah both in my name.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 16:34
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QUOTE (janeta33 @ Tue, 14 May 2019 - 17:21) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 14 May 2019 - 14:35) *
Is the PCN and the CC in your name?


yeah both in my name.


so what happened to the NOR?

What you need to do now is wait for a document called the order for recovery. With that you can make a statutory declaration that you did not receive a notice of rejection. This will revoke the CC and the council will be required to refer to the tribunal, who will set the case down for appeal.

The letter from the authority telling you they will send a NOR to the RK is outside the process and has been prejudicial to you and might help you win. Do not contact the council just follow procedure


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janeta33
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 06:23
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 14 May 2019 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (janeta33 @ Tue, 14 May 2019 - 17:21) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 14 May 2019 - 14:35) *
Is the PCN and the CC in your name?


yeah both in my name.


so what happened to the NOR?

What you need to do now is wait for a document called the order for recovery. With that you can make a statutory declaration that you did not receive a notice of rejection. This will revoke the CC and the council will be required to refer to the tribunal, who will set the case down for appeal.

The letter from the authority telling you they will send a NOR to the RK is outside the process and has been prejudicial to you and might help you win. Do not contact the council just follow procedure


The last letter I received from them (before the one sent 2 days ago) was the letter I posted here on 22nd Feb, I haven't had a NOR. I'll wait for the order for recovery. How long does this normally take, I worry that I don't get anything and then it gets escalated as they would claim I missed that step of the process and there's no going back.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 08:10
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If you have not heard anything after 3 weeks contact the council, ask them when will you issue the order for recovery. Nothing else do not get into a discussion with them about the PCN


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janeta33
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 12:41
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 09:10) *
If you have not heard anything after 3 weeks contact the council, ask them when will you issue the order for recovery. Nothing else do not get into a discussion with them about the PCN



Will do. Again thank you very much for the advise.
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