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2 NIPs stating same time and date
RonnyRaygun
post Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 21:53
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Last Saturday I received two letters through the post. Both informed me that a car that I am the registered keeper of was recorded breaking the speed limit at 2.25pm on the 29th November.
The first letter stated that the speed recorded was 36mph by a roadside camera, and the second was 42mph by a mobile unit.

My wife has confessed she was rushing to collect our younger son from school, and admits that she was probably going too fast.

However, it seems to me that she has only committed one offence, as she would have been slowing down between being recorded by the mobile unit and the roadside camera (I know where the roadside camera is situated, and I know the likely location of the mobile unit, as I have seen them there in the past).

How should we approach fighting this?

She already has six points on her licence.
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post Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 21:53
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RonnyRaygun
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 10:53
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 10:43) *
Stick to the forum advice.


I agree, but I have to convince her of this. And I need cold, hard facts to be able to do this. She's not the sort of person who will trust the word of someone on a forum, without a legal clause or precedent or similar to back it up.

I believe that the two issues (one continuous offence and not being given the opportunity to rectify offending behaviour) are both reasonable defences and mentioning them both at this stage would have no detrimental impact on any ensuing court case.

Is there a legal argument that would convince her of that?
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Jlc
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 10:57
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Seems 'aggressive' to me, the bit about seeking legal counsel. (It seems like some sort of threat)

I'd keep is simple, as above, even to the extent of taking out the distance. (Simply same time and location)

Or actually go and seek legal advice before saying something about it.

Alternatively, a bemused phone call often works.

QUOTE (RonnyRaygun @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 10:53) *
...not being given the opportunity to rectify offending behaviour

This usually applies to offences on different days.

The counterargument is that one should be complying with the limit anyway and does not need to have the opportunity to 'rectify'.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RonnyRaygun
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:24
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Just found this:

I was recently caught speeding twice on two cameras on the same road within a few minutes of each other. How many points will I get?

On the issue of the two alleged recent speeding offences, section 28(2) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 says:

“Where a person is convicted of two or more such offences, the number of penalty points to be attributed to those of them that were committed on the same occasion is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them”.

Whether multiple road traffic offences are committed on the same occasion will be decided by the court based on the facts of each case. If the magistrates determine that the two road traffic offences arise from one incident on the same occasion then points will only be given for one of the driving offences. However, if they decide that you have committed two separate road traffic offences then penalty points will be given for each offence. In the case of two speeding offences detected by two difference speed cameras you will need to gather evidence showing your journey and distances travelled in order to show this was one incident of driving.

https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/individu...q/speedingfaqs/

https://www.richardsilver.co.uk/news/caught...s-will-you-get/

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NewJudge
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:37
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You (and/or your wife) are getting unnecessarily bogged down.

What you have quoted above applies to decisions made in court. Your matter(s) need not go anywhere near a court (unless your wife already has six points on her licence). You need to get a decision from the ticket office as to whether they will treat the two allegations as one offence. If they do she will almost certainly be offered a Speed Awareness Course (provided she has not done one for an offence which occurred in the three years prior to this one) or failing that a fixed penalty (£100 and 3 points). If not one offence will be dealt with by the offer of a course and the other with the offer of a fixed penalty. If she does not accept the course a second fixed penalty will be offered.

You don't need to concern yourself with the court procedures which deal with multiple offences. Only if they refuse to amalgamate the charges and your wife wants to challenge that decision will she will have to contest the matter in court. Whatever the decision - even if the court agrees that only one offence was committed - it will cost her a shedload more than the out of court disposals mentioned even without legal representation.

She may not want to take the advice already given - that is her privilege. But what's been advised is a tried and tested method of dealing with matters such as this.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:43
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Jlc
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:42
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Absolutely.

But the legal side has now been covered - and importantly that it's a matter of fact for the court to decide upon. (But it shouldn't need to go there unless the CTO decide they can't conflate the allegations and the defendant wants to take it there)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:43


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RonnyRaygun
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:48
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:37) *
You (and/or your wife) are getting unnecessarily bogged down.

What you have quoted above applies to decisions made in court. Your matter(s) need not go anywhere near a court (unless your wife already has six points on her licence)

Yes, she has.

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:37) *
. You need to get a decision from the ticket office as to whether they will treat the two allegations as one offence. If they do she will almost certainly be offered a Speed Awareness Course (provided she has not done one for an offence which occurred in the three years prior to this one)

Yes, she's done one quite recently.

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:37) *
Only if they refuse to amalgamate the charges and your wife wants to challenge that decision will she will have to contest the matter in court. Whatever the decision - even if the court agrees that only one offence was committed - it will cost her a shedload more than the out of court disposals mentioned.

Yes, obviously the risk is that the issuing authority refuse to amalgamate the tickets. This will mean six points which would lead to a ban. This is what we need to avoid.

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:37) *
She may not want to take the advice already given - that is her privilege. But what's been advised is a tried and tested method of dealing with matters such as this.

Thanks, I'll let her know this.
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Jlc
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:55
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Just twigged the 6 points. The stakes are higher so I understand the concern.

It's still worth asking them to consider the single offence. As the matter will be going to court if they don't, then she'll have the opportunity to do the same there.

Otherwise, she will have the opportunity to submit an exceptional hardship plea to avoid/reduce the 6 months ban.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:33
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By asking them to consider them as one single offence, not two, youre not taking away any defence points, at all. Youre making a ismple, straight forward request that seems entirley reasonable.
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NewJudge
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:39
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Yes, I too have only just noticed the six points she already has (and that you've now said she would not be eligible for a course).

But the advice still stands. The ticket office is your first port of call as they have the discretion to amalgamate the offences. If they do it's fine and a FP will almost certainly be offered. If they don't then a re-think is necessary but you must take it one step at a time and get the decision of the ticket office first.
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RonnyRaygun
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:14
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:33) *
By asking them to consider them as one single offence, not two, youre not taking away any defence points, at all. Youre making a ismple, straight forward request that seems entirley reasonable.

Well there you have it. It just took a phone call and they have cancelled the second ticket. Apparently they actually occurred eleven seconds apart (which means there must have only been around 200m between the mobile unit and the camera.

Thanks for all your help and hopefully this thread will be of help to others in a similar situation.
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Jlc
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:18
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Good stuff - many CTO's are actually quite reasonable...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:38
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 10:57) *
Seems 'aggressive' to me, the bit about seeking legal counsel. (It seems like some sort of threat)

Not to mention that neither the ticket office nor the CPS will give a s**t - they get paid the same regardless of how many cases are proceeded with or not.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Starworshipper12
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:58
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Another fantastic result for the forum guys, and a good example of how one should heed the advice given herein. I do hope Op’s Wife buys him a (crate of) beer for the saved hassle/financial woe.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:12
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Well that was as easy as we suggested, good result for you wife.

As an however though, now she will be on 9 points with no lifelines (courses) she really does need to focus a lot better on the limits and her speed or you’ll be seeking advice on hardship pleas next.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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RonnyRaygun
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 15:22
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:12) *
Well that was as easy as we suggested, good result for you wife.

As an however though, now she will be on 9 points with no lifelines (courses) she really does need to focus a lot better on the limits and her speed or you’ll be seeking advice on hardship pleas next.

Yes, we have had this conversation already!
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