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Council PCN. Drivers challenge rejected, Can driver make a formal appeal in response to notice to owner.
hexaflexagon
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 16:27
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I borrowed my wife's car and incurred a charge notice in a council car park.

I challenged the notice as the driver and the challenge was rejected.
The rejection said:

"You may wait for a Notice to Owner (NTO) to be sent to the Registered Keeper of the vehicle. The Notice to Owner gives the keeper of the vehicle the opportunity to begin a formal appeal process - including a hearing before an independent adjudicator. However, once the Notice to Owner is issued the full fine of £50 will be due and you will no longer be able to pay at the reduced £25.00 rate."

My wife has received the NTO.

My question is can I as the keeper on the day submit a formal appeal in my name in response to the NTO (which would contain additional information about lack of clear signage which came to light after the challenge), or does my wife as the registered keeper have to submit the appeal.

She wasn't with me on the occasion in question so I do't see how she could sign the appeal since if she was invited before an adjudicator to give evidence about the event she clearly couldn't.

The NTO says
"You the Owner/Keeper/Hirer are liable for the Penalty Charge Notice. Do not Ignore this Notice Or pass it to the driver"

I suppose this boils down to the definition of 'keeper' but the wording above seems to clear that it's my wife who must respond since she's exhorted not to pass it to me.
Yet one of the several tick boxes for the appeals is that 'The alleged Contravention did not occurr', which is precisely the argument I'd want to put since I allege the lack of clear signage renders it impossible for anything to have been contravened.

It seems somewhat contradictory since on the one hand my wife is presumably allowed to tick this box, yet she has no direct knowledge other than my say so that this is the case.

I'm not looking to debate the whys and wherefores of the actual event, I would just like comments about the procedural aspects. i.e. who is able to make the appeal.

Thanks in advance.
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post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 16:27
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hcandersen
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 16:35
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No you cannot.

You may draft but she must sign.

She doesn't have to word in the first person and the law recognises that RKs won't necessarily be the drivers, but there has to be clarity and there is.

The driver was my husband. He's informed me that ..../I understand that.. or whatever.

As regards an appeal in person or on the phone, you can attend/speak for her if she gives written authorisation.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 18:36
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 17:35) *
No you cannot.

You may draft but she must sign.

She doesn't have to word in the first person and the law recognises that RKs won't necessarily be the drivers, but there has to be clarity and there is.

The driver was my husband. He's informed me that ..../I understand that.. or whatever.

As regards an appeal in person or on the phone, you can attend/speak for her if she gives written authorisation.



bearing in mind the findings in a recent case where the RK was not the driver, the third person narrative was taken as hearsay by the adjudicator, so write and sign a witness statement or appear as a witness


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hcandersen
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:13
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OP, we need the PCN, the challenge and reply pl. Before you send the debate off into the whathappensphere we need the whatshappenedhere.
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hexaflexagon
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 22:51
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 22:13) *
OP, we need the PCN, the challenge and reply pl. Before you send the debate off into the whathappensphere we need the whatshappenedhere.


OK, I hadn't wanted to burden the forum with the details of the challenge and appeal since I was not specifically looking for arguments to use, rather the formalities of the procedure and who can appeal.

However if it helps I've added a redacted version of what I've drafted for my wife to send as an attachment to the NTO.

Attached File(s)
Attached File  Redacted_Parking_Appeal2.doc ( 305K ) Number of downloads: 32
 
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 23:26
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looking at the photos I think you should be arguing more strongly that it is not clear that you were not in a bay as well as the signage


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