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Yellow box fine - Contravention: 31J, Threads merged
Hello100
post Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 22:08
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Hi,

Today I received a PCN from Barnet Council.
I was waiting to turn right before a yellow box. The vehicle infront got stuck in the box , as he proceeded to move forward I went after him and suddenly the traffic came to a stop and this time I got caught in the yellow box. I was not blocking any traffic and if I didn't move into the box then I would be stuck in the middle of the road.

Can someone tell me what my right is regarding this and how can I go about fighting the charge.

Please see imagine attached. I am the silver vehicle, in the second imagine I'm stuck behind the van.

As part of my job I drive a lot. I didn't receive any tickets all year until the last two months. This is my third in the space of two months. Could this be because the year is coming to an end and they're trying to hit targets?

I'm currently apealing one.

Thank you

This post has been edited by Hello100: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 12:03
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post Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 22:08
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 22:30
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We need to see all of the PCN and the video look at the council website for how to view, copy and post here. Turning right is an exemption


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Incandescent
post Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 22:55
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 22:30) *
We need to see all of the PCN and the video look at the council website for how to view, copy and post here. Turning right is an exemption

+1
But you have posted nothing yet so we can't advise fully.
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Hello100
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 11:21
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This post has been edited by Hello100: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 12:09
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Hello100
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 12:02
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 22:30) *
We need to see all of the PCN and the video look at the council website for how to view, copy and post here. Turning right is an exemption



Hi Please see PCN that was issued to me. I wasn't aware that there was a video available. After watching the video, I realised I went into the box without stopping before hand.

This post has been edited by Hello100: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 12:04
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 14:45
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First thing this is a PCN issued to a company, they are the ones liable. If you were driving and they have passed it to you to deal with you need their authorisation

We need the video still are just that, how can we tell first what the situation was when you entered the box, what was the exit like on entry to the box, why you stopped or even if you stopped at all

Get the video upload to youtube and link here


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Hello100
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 15:12
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 14:45) *
First thing this is a PCN issued to a company, they are the ones liable. If you were driving and they have passed it to you to deal with you need their authorisation

We need the video still are just that, how can we tell first what the situation was when you entered the box, what was the exit like on entry to the box, why you stopped or even if you stopped at all

Get the video upload to youtube and link here



The video can be at https://barnetocm.itsvc.co.uk/ with AG33490516 with reg number: LM18HJY. The vehicle is given to my by my work and I am authorised and liable for the fine.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 15:41
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You may be liable to reimburse the company, but it is the company that is liable to the council. To challenge you need written permission

I do not really agree with this finding by an adjudicator, but if it apples at the location subject to this appeal it can apply here

2180108271

Mr.xxxx appeals against a penalty charge notice (PCN) issued in respect of an alleged contravention of the requirements of a ‘box junction’, as defined in paragraph 11(1) of Part 7 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. Mr. xxxxxx attended and we viewed the CCTV footage of the alleged contravention together. Naturally Mr. xxxxxxxxx wished to present his argument in relation to the movement of the coach. The position is, however, as we ascertained during the hearing, more straightforward. I did not need to decide the merits of that argument.
Paragraph 11 goes on to say:
“(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who
(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.”
Based on the description in the PCN, this is a box junction between two roads, namely Talgarth Road and Butterwick. Sub-paragraph 6(a) therefore applies. It is clear on the evidence, and I find, that Mr.xxxxxxxxx entered the box junction for the purpose of turning right. It is equally clear that he had to stop within it – before he completed the right turn - due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Indeed, two vehicles ahead of him stopped, the first being a coach and the second being another car. I looked carefully at the respective positions of the coach and the vehicle behind it vis-à-vis the carriageway at the point they were stationary. In so doing I looked at the angle of the front wheels of the car ahead of Mr.xxxxxxxxxx vehicle and its position vis-à-vis the lane its driver was seeking to join. The wheels were still turned substantially to the right; they were not positioned straight ahead. The front nearside wheel was wide of the edge of the lane; it was not yet within the lane. It is clear to me, and I find, that neither the coach nor the car behind it had completed their respective right turns. In short, they had not yet lined up with the carriageway and were still in the process of turning right when they came to a halt. Mr. de Havilland’s vehicle was only stationary behind those vehicles whilst they were stationary in the positions I have described. Accordingly, sub-paragraph (3) applies and the contravention is not proved.

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 15:44


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Hello100
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 18:28
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 15:41) *
You may be liable to reimburse the company, but it is the company that is liable to the council. To challenge you need written permission

I do not really agree with this finding by an adjudicator, but if it apples at the location subject to this appeal it can apply here

2180108271

Mr.xxxx appeals against a penalty charge notice (PCN) issued in respect of an alleged contravention of the requirements of a ‘box junction’, as defined in paragraph 11(1) of Part 7 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. Mr. xxxxxx attended and we viewed the CCTV footage of the alleged contravention together. Naturally Mr. xxxxxxxxx wished to present his argument in relation to the movement of the coach. The position is, however, as we ascertained during the hearing, more straightforward. I did not need to decide the merits of that argument.
Paragraph 11 goes on to say:
“(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who
(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.”
Based on the description in the PCN, this is a box junction between two roads, namely Talgarth Road and Butterwick. Sub-paragraph 6(a) therefore applies. It is clear on the evidence, and I find, that Mr.xxxxxxxxx entered the box junction for the purpose of turning right. It is equally clear that he had to stop within it – before he completed the right turn - due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Indeed, two vehicles ahead of him stopped, the first being a coach and the second being another car. I looked carefully at the respective positions of the coach and the vehicle behind it vis-à-vis the carriageway at the point they were stationary. In so doing I looked at the angle of the front wheels of the car ahead of Mr.xxxxxxxxxx vehicle and its position vis-à-vis the lane its driver was seeking to join. The wheels were still turned substantially to the right; they were not positioned straight ahead. The front nearside wheel was wide of the edge of the lane; it was not yet within the lane. It is clear to me, and I find, that neither the coach nor the car behind it had completed their respective right turns. In short, they had not yet lined up with the carriageway and were still in the process of turning right when they came to a halt. Mr. de Havilland’s vehicle was only stationary behind those vehicles whilst they were stationary in the positions I have described. Accordingly, sub-paragraph (3) applies and the contravention is not proved.


Thank you very much for the help. I will appeal the case tonight. Many Thanks
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cp8759
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 19:09
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Here's a copy of the video that won't make your eyes hurt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqzegA9Jq4


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