PCN when using a machine ticket AND Ringo |
PCN when using a machine ticket AND Ringo |
Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 14:04
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 7 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,768 |
Hi Guys
This is my first time posting on this, I would really appreciate if someone could help me out (and if i need to post more information in regards to something please let me know). Essentially the order of events was as follows: - I used the machine to get a 30min free display ticket for my car - When the time had expired, I was too far away to walk back so I used the Ringo app to purchase another 30min stay (note this cost 12p because of service fees) - When i got back to the car I saw a council parking ticket (which I will attach a screenshot of), and this was given for the time I used the Ringo app, and not the initial display ticket time. This was a PCN by the London Borough of Redbridge. It essentially says: Parked with payment made to extend the stay beyond the initial time. Contravention code 07. Then just the basics about time, vehicle, cost etc. I think this is very sneaky by the warden, but do you feel there are grounds to appeal here? Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks (EDIT: I am unable to post the attachment of the front and back. Can anyone offer assistance please?) This post has been edited by us01: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 14:20 |
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 14:04
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 14:29
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 7 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,768 |
If this helps, the sign where I was parked said in full:
Mon - Sat 8.30am-6.30am Pay by phone 020... quoting location xxxx or Pay here at machine, Display ticket Max stay 2 hours, No return within 1 hour. My initial 30min display ticket expired at 12.07pm (started at 11.37am), and then I made another purchase via Ringo app for 30mins commencing at 12.11pm. The PCN says "... at Location from 12:25 to/at 12:28" |
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 15:20
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
We need to see the documents PCN, council photos and GSV. If the sign does not prohibit topping up then you should win
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:49
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,178 Joined: 1 Jan 2013 From: Glasgow Member No.: 59,097 |
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:56
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Well sign says no return so technically the gap could be your undoing.
If you use Tinypic as Stuart says paste the IMG code. We prefer Imgur and other non-ad sites these day - Imgur has BBCode links which does the samee job as the Tinypic code. |
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 18:09
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 7 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,768 |
Thanks guys. I've attached the images front and back of the PCN (hope I did it correctly). What is meant by GSV sorry? And by council photo what are you referring to exactly? If you mean the signpost outside then it read: "Mon - Sat 8.30am-6.30am Pay by phone 020... quoting location xxxx or Pay here at machine, Display ticket Max stay 2 hours, No return within 1 hour." Apologies for my ignorance on this. This post has been edited by us01: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 18:11 |
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 18:51
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
GSV - here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.592905,0.02...3312!8i6656 I think it's the wrong contravention as you didn't extend the time but bought a new session. It's more: 22 Re-parked in the same parking place or zone within one hour after leaving. But you didn't leave as such. In any case you can see you did something wrong as you couldn't have bought a free 1 hour ticket? |
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 19:11
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 19 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,271 |
When you used ringo did you get another free 30 minutes forget about 12p text charge.
Usually it is only the first 30 minutes are free otherwise you could keep getting 30 minutes free every half hour by using ringo every half hour. Most car parks and on street limit it to one free session per stay . If you plan to stay for an hour they expect you to pay 1 hours tariff not half hour free and pay half an hour. Photo of machine and tariff board would be helpful and can you mix payment at machine and phone for one parking session |
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 19:35
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 7 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,768 |
ah GSV= google street view. Apologies.
And yes when i used Ringo i got another 30mins free effectively. I didn't plan to stay more than 30mins but it happened unfortunately. I'll get a picture of the machine up. Tariff board ive written exactly what it says in my posts above. |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 09:23
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Hmmm
No question in contravention, non payment or display, overstaying, returning (even though not moved the vehicle) but not convinced that the contravention cited is one that applies. Yes you topped up a free period with another free period but what signage is in place to prevent topping up ? |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 12:47
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Hmmm No question in contravention, non payment or display, overstaying, returning (even though not moved the vehicle) but not convinced that the contravention cited is one that applies. Yes you topped up a free period with another free period but what signage is in place to prevent topping up ? Define 'topped up'. For me this isn't a top up. |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 12:56
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Hmmm No question in contravention, non payment or display, overstaying, returning (even though not moved the vehicle) but not convinced that the contravention cited is one that applies. Yes you topped up a free period with another free period but what signage is in place to prevent topping up ? Define 'topped up'. For me this isn't a top up. QUOTE Parked with payment made to extend the stay beyond the initial time. Wot is on the PCN. Just a fancy way of saying topping up. Which is what OP says they did and from what they say, exactly what they did. That payment for the second was zero is irrelevant, it is still topping up. My issue is what signs are in place to say you cannot top up because without any, probably on the T&Cs of the payment machine, the contravention cited did not happen. Others may have done but can only be penalised for what is alleged, not for what should have been alleged. |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:03
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
So even with a 4 min gap between the sessions it's an extension? That's why I thought wrong convention (as you also noted).
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:11
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
So even with a 4 min gap between the sessions it's an extension? That's why I thought wrong convention (as you also noted). The gap could lead to other contraventions but that is not what has been cited, they allege that OP paid to extend (topped up) Fight the contravention cited But we need to see what the payment machine says on the matter, the parking bay sign says nothing on it and this comes into methods of payment...on the machine. |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:43
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,055 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Their website:
https://www.redbridge.gov.uk/parking/parking-charges/ So, we have: you can get a free 30 minute ticket from the nearest pay and display machine from where you have parked press the green button for your ticket you should display this on your car dashboard as normal alternatively, a free 30 minute session can be obtained through RingGo using the details on the side of the machine RingGo service to pay on your mobile You will receive a penalty charge notice if no ticket is displayed or if your time has expired. Free sessions can only be used once and must not be used one after the other. That’s clear and makes sense otherwise you could manage to get at least 1 hour’s free parking. The questions are: how is this conveyed at street level and how may it be enforced? Clearly, unless there’s intelligent communication between the P&D m/c and RingGo such that your first transaction has been recorded then the system is flawed and open to abuse.There doesn’t appear to be a fail safe mechanism within the ticket purchase system to prevent this happening by accident, but only the OP would know because they used the system. The loop is closed when a CEO sees a recently expired free ‘P&D’ ticket and an entry on their HHC that 30 mins have been obtained through RingGo.(and maybe vice versa) For example, does RingGo without exception give a motorist 30 free minutes whether stand-alone or as part of a longer period of purchased time? If so, then this defect is too bad to allow to go unchallenged because it effectively discriminates against motorists who genuinely want to pay when they realise their first 30 mins will be insufficient. Topping up is not universally an offence, see this from the CEO’s Handbook: Contravention code 07 ...Some authorities have a policy that allows meter feeding up to the maximum permitted time on the parking bay. If total parking duration extends beyond the maximum time permitted then a code 30 PCN should be issued OP, we need to know what the instructions and tariffs are on the machine and the exact mechanics and procedure for RingGo. |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:49
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Ringgo system won't allow you to input an initial P&D session so would start at the free 30 mins. If OP had bought the first session with Ringgo then it could have been extended with a paid for portion no doubt, but not if the 30 mins had expired.
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:54
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 7 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,768 |
Thanks for looking into this guys. What I'll do is get a picture for the machine if you still need it.
And is there anything more you would need more information on? |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 14:02
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,055 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Thanks. I’d still appreciate the OP’s feedback.
If as above, then I cannot see the authority even going to adjudication with this, they’d be foolish to risk this flaw being exposed. I parked and thought 30 minutes would cut the mustard. Obtained 30-minute ticket. Realised later - within the 30 minutes- that I would go over time. I knew that I had 10 minutes’ grace before a PCN could be served but still wanted to be safe Not wishing to get a PCN, I attempted to purchase a ticket by the only method available i.e. RingGo, which I managed to do albeit a couple of minutes late but within the ‘grace’ period. I needed no more than 15-20 minutes to complete my business and return to the car. RinGo only gave me the option to obtain a second 30-minute session, which I did. I’m not saying this was the sequence, but their flawed system allows it to happen and gives out wrongful PCNs as far as I can see. |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 14:26
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
………. but their flawed system allows it to happen and gives out wrongful PCNs as far as I can see. Agree fully on the flawed system but it is CEOs who serve the PCN not the system. Assuming the CEO saw the expired ticket and checked ringo payments to find another had been "purchased", topping up can only be valid contravention if the T&Cs prescribe it. And would not matter if OP had topped up free or with an actual payment. For that we need to see the machine T&Cs. I'm thinking that the CEO cited the wrong contravention and one that cannot be sustained. |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 14:41
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Yes, machine T&Cs are key. However, I don't see it necessarily as a flawed system as you commit yourself in most locations and on Ringgo if you buy a time limited ticket - at least Ringgo allows you to extend as long as you do so before the session ends, and I expect there are a few P&D machines that do the same.
HCA does make a point though about acting within the grace period but systems are not programmed on this, only on the expired time. CEO issued on 11 mins after expiry. |
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