PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN when using a machine ticket AND Ringo
us01
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 14:04
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 7 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,768



Hi Guys
This is my first time posting on this, I would really appreciate if someone could help me out (and if i need to post more information in regards to something please let me know).

Essentially the order of events was as follows:
- I used the machine to get a 30min free display ticket for my car
- When the time had expired, I was too far away to walk back so I used the Ringo app to purchase another 30min stay (note this cost 12p because of service fees)
- When i got back to the car I saw a council parking ticket (which I will attach a screenshot of), and this was given for the time I used the Ringo app, and not the initial display ticket time.
This was a PCN by the London Borough of Redbridge.
It essentially says:
Parked with payment made to extend the stay beyond the initial time.
Contravention code 07.
Then just the basics about time, vehicle, cost etc.

I think this is very sneaky by the warden, but do you feel there are grounds to appeal here?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks

(EDIT: I am unable to post the attachment of the front and back. Can anyone offer assistance please?)

This post has been edited by us01: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 14:20
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 14:04
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
us01
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 14:29
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 7 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,768



If this helps, the sign where I was parked said in full:
Mon - Sat 8.30am-6.30am
Pay by phone 020... quoting location xxxx
or
Pay here at machine, Display ticket
Max stay 2 hours, No return within 1 hour.

My initial 30min display ticket expired at 12.07pm (started at 11.37am), and then I made another purchase via Ringo app for 30mins commencing at 12.11pm.

The PCN says "... at Location from 12:25 to/at 12:28"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 15:20
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



We need to see the documents PCN, council photos and GSV. If the sign does not prohibit topping up then you should win


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StuartBu
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:49
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,178
Joined: 1 Jan 2013
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 59,097



QUOTE (us01 @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 15:04) *
Hi Guys


(EDIT: I am unable to post the attachment of the front and back. Can anyone offer assistance please?)

Dont use the " attachment" facility- use an external image host such as tinypic and post the links it provides startjng and ending with [IMG]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:56
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Well sign says no return so technically the gap could be your undoing.

If you use Tinypic as Stuart says paste the IMG code.

We prefer Imgur and other non-ad sites these day - Imgur has BBCode links which does the samee job as the Tinypic code.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
us01
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 18:09
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 7 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,768









Thanks guys. I've attached the images front and back of the PCN (hope I did it correctly).

What is meant by GSV sorry?

And by council photo what are you referring to exactly?
If you mean the signpost outside then it read:
"Mon - Sat 8.30am-6.30am
Pay by phone 020... quoting location xxxx
or
Pay here at machine, Display ticket
Max stay 2 hours, No return within 1 hour."

Apologies for my ignorance on this.

This post has been edited by us01: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 18:11
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 18:51
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



GSV - here?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.592905,0.02...3312!8i6656

I think it's the wrong contravention as you didn't extend the time but bought a new session. It's more:

22 Re-parked in the same parking place or zone within one hour after leaving.

But you didn't leave as such.

In any case you can see you did something wrong as you couldn't have bought a free 1 hour ticket?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SX4
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 19:11
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 173
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,271



When you used ringo did you get another free 30 minutes forget about 12p text charge.
Usually it is only the first 30 minutes are free otherwise you could keep getting 30 minutes free every half hour by using ringo every half hour. Most car parks and on street limit it to one free session per stay .
If you plan to stay for an hour they expect you to pay 1 hours tariff not half hour free and pay half an hour.
Photo of machine and tariff board would be helpful and can you mix payment at machine and phone for one parking session
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
us01
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 19:35
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 7 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,768



ah GSV= google street view. Apologies.

And yes when i used Ringo i got another 30mins free effectively. I didn't plan to stay more than 30mins but it happened unfortunately.

I'll get a picture of the machine up.

Tariff board ive written exactly what it says in my posts above.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 09:23
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Hmmm
No question in contravention, non payment or display, overstaying, returning (even though not moved the vehicle) but not convinced that the contravention cited is one that applies.
Yes you topped up a free period with another free period but what signage is in place to prevent topping up ?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 12:47
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 10:23) *
Hmmm
No question in contravention, non payment or display, overstaying, returning (even though not moved the vehicle) but not convinced that the contravention cited is one that applies.
Yes you topped up a free period with another free period but what signage is in place to prevent topping up ?



Define 'topped up'. For me this isn't a top up.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 12:56
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:47) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 10:23) *
Hmmm
No question in contravention, non payment or display, overstaying, returning (even though not moved the vehicle) but not convinced that the contravention cited is one that applies.
Yes you topped up a free period with another free period but what signage is in place to prevent topping up ?



Define 'topped up'. For me this isn't a top up.



QUOTE
Parked with payment made to extend the stay beyond the initial time.

Wot is on the PCN. biggrin.gif
Just a fancy way of saying topping up.
Which is what OP says they did and from what they say, exactly what they did. That payment for the second was zero is irrelevant, it is still topping up.
My issue is what signs are in place to say you cannot top up because without any, probably on the T&Cs of the payment machine, the contravention cited did not happen.
Others may have done but can only be penalised for what is alleged, not for what should have been alleged.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:03
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



So even with a 4 min gap between the sessions it's an extension? That's why I thought wrong convention (as you also noted).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:11
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 14:03) *
So even with a 4 min gap between the sessions it's an extension? That's why I thought wrong convention (as you also noted).



The gap could lead to other contraventions but that is not what has been cited, they allege that OP paid to extend (topped up)
Fight the contravention cited biggrin.gif
But we need to see what the payment machine says on the matter, the parking bay sign says nothing on it and this comes into methods of payment...on the machine.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:43
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,055
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Their website:
https://www.redbridge.gov.uk/parking/parking-charges/

So, we have:
you can get a free 30 minute ticket from the nearest pay and display machine from where you have parked
press the green button for your ticket
you should display this on your car dashboard as normal
alternatively, a free 30 minute session can be obtained through RingGo using the details on the side of the machine RingGo service to pay on your mobile
You will receive a penalty charge notice if no ticket is displayed or if your time has expired. Free sessions can only be used once and must not be used one after the other.


That’s clear and makes sense otherwise you could manage to get at least 1 hour’s free parking.

The questions are: how is this conveyed at street level and how may it be enforced?

Clearly, unless there’s intelligent communication between the P&D m/c and RingGo such that your first transaction has been recorded then the system is flawed and open to abuse.There doesn’t appear to be a fail safe mechanism within the ticket purchase system to prevent this happening by accident, but only the OP would know because they used the system. The loop is closed when a CEO sees a recently expired free ‘P&D’ ticket and an entry on their HHC that 30 mins have been obtained through RingGo.(and maybe vice versa)

For example, does RingGo without exception give a motorist 30 free minutes whether stand-alone or as part of a longer period of purchased time? If so, then this defect is too bad to allow to go unchallenged because it effectively discriminates against motorists who genuinely want to pay when they realise their first 30 mins will be insufficient.

Topping up is not universally an offence, see this from the CEO’s Handbook:
Contravention code 07
...Some authorities have a policy that allows meter feeding up to the maximum permitted time on the parking bay. If total parking duration extends beyond the maximum time permitted then a code 30 PCN should be issued


OP, we need to know what the instructions and tariffs are on the machine and the exact mechanics and procedure for RingGo.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:49
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Ringgo system won't allow you to input an initial P&D session so would start at the free 30 mins. If OP had bought the first session with Ringgo then it could have been extended with a paid for portion no doubt, but not if the 30 mins had expired.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
us01
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:54
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 7 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,768



Thanks for looking into this guys. What I'll do is get a picture for the machine if you still need it.
And is there anything more you would need more information on?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 14:02
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,055
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Thanks. I’d still appreciate the OP’s feedback.

If as above, then I cannot see the authority even going to adjudication with this, they’d be foolish to risk this flaw being exposed.

I parked and thought 30 minutes would cut the mustard. Obtained 30-minute ticket.
Realised later - within the 30 minutes- that I would go over time.
I knew that I had 10 minutes’ grace before a PCN could be served but still wanted to be safe
Not wishing to get a PCN, I attempted to purchase a ticket by the only method available i.e. RingGo, which I managed to do albeit a couple of minutes late but within the ‘grace’ period.
I needed no more than 15-20 minutes to complete my business and return to the car.
RinGo only gave me the option to obtain a second 30-minute session, which I did.

I’m not saying this was the sequence, but their flawed system allows it to happen and gives out wrongful PCNs as far as I can see.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 14:26
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 15:02) *
………. but their flawed system allows it to happen and gives out wrongful PCNs as far as I can see.

Agree fully on the flawed system but it is CEOs who serve the PCN not the system.
Assuming the CEO saw the expired ticket and checked ringo payments to find another had been "purchased", topping up can only be valid contravention if the T&Cs prescribe it.
And would not matter if OP had topped up free or with an actual payment.
For that we need to see the machine T&Cs.
I'm thinking that the CEO cited the wrong contravention and one that cannot be sustained.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 14:41
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Yes, machine T&Cs are key. However, I don't see it necessarily as a flawed system as you commit yourself in most locations and on Ringgo if you buy a time limited ticket - at least Ringgo allows you to extend as long as you do so before the session ends, and I expect there are a few P&D machines that do the same.

HCA does make a point though about acting within the grace period but systems are not programmed on this, only on the expired time.

CEO issued on 11 mins after expiry.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 12:29
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here