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'No Permit' ticket from Civil Enforcement Ltd - how to fight please?
EggDogFrog
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 00:51
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Hi so I will try to be brief. I've searched the various posts here and elsewhere but I'm not sure if this case is strong enough?

The driver parked in a small neighbouring town, one passenger knew it better and advised that they could park behind a school. It was evening and dark, they drove down a short narrow passage to the back where one or two cars are parked. Room for maybe ten more cars.

The driver didn't see any signs about not parking and definitely nothing about ANPR cameras or charges. They moved the car after about 2.5hrs. I have just received a PCN on returning to home (was staying elsewhere so after about two weeks). So nearly at the 14 day rate. Like that matters ha!

My question is: do I have a good case?
I haven't been able to revisit the site to take photos but will do asap. This will have to be in the evening as it's a school and I'm not sure what lighting was provided for any signs. I presume this is my only dispute.

There are some good template letters out there like this one which I've found helpful.

This letter
from parkingcowboys adds the issue of the contract to carry out duties by the land owner. Not sure if this helps my case.

Does anyone have any advice or thoughts please?



This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:12
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post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 00:51
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EggDogFrog
post Mon, 13 Jan 2020 - 13:19
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I will try to post up this reply letter before I send it but in the mean time anyone with any useful comments would be appreciated.

I noticed this CEL defence which seems to have worked with great ease http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=131763

Not sure if that approach would have been better?
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 13 Jan 2020 - 13:47
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Nope, costs, and only if the y are shown to be unreasonable. CPR27.14(2)(g), find it and read it.
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EggDogFrog
post Mon, 13 Jan 2020 - 17:37
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QUOTE
Nope, costs, and only if the y are shown to be unreasonable. CPR27.14(2)(g), find it and read it.


Thanks that's useful to be aware of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEH8notIAqY
I am inspired by this case where the defendant ignored all letters (wrongly as admitted) until court papers where issued. In brief CEL no show and court awared over £100 in costs.

There may be an issue with not repling earlier and not trying POPLA (would have though) but this example is far worse than my case as I have shown my case and wil continue with dialogue to avoid court etc

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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 07:45
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Thats merely the ordinary costs - half days loss of leave OR loss of pay, capped at £95.
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EggDogFrog
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 22:45
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Hi, this is my proposed reply to CEL after their response basically stating - too late to appeal, send £100 in 14 days or else ...


QUOTE
To whom it may concern,

I am writing with connection to the ‘Parking Charge Notice (PCN)’ referred to above.

Thank you for your letter, dated xxxx, confirming the receipt of my previous letter, dated xxxx, sent via your website which outlined my dispute with regards to this PCN.

Your letter states that you are no longer accepting or dealing with appeals on this matter which is clearly a shame as it may also have been useful to hand my dispute onto POPLA. Regardless of this, it does not alter the fact that your supposed ‘charge’ is actually enforceable.

Your letters have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is clearly no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

You have also chosen to ignored and not address the points raised in my previous letter, which where, in brief:

1.1 The provision of evidence time and date stamped imagery in line with your code of conduct.

1.2 The provision of copy of the contract between yourselves, Civil Enforcement Limited (CEL), and the land owners.

2.0 The sub-standard, un-illuminated signage, which contravenes your code of conduct (see example photographs in previous letter)

3.0 The ‘forbidding’ nature of your signage, meaning the terms and conditions cannot apply, case reference: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6 [2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016]


I would like to make it absolutely clear that I will not be making any payment for this alleged ‘PCN’ to CEL and any effort to artificially inflate this ‘charge’ by passing the matter onto you're in-house ‘debt collection agency’ will be ignored.

Therefore I must state that there is no point in sending any further letters in an attempt to threaten or intimate me into making any such payments. The only way that I will make any payment to CEL, will be if it is decreed by judgement of the courts. I conclude, that I remain confident that any such case would be resolved in my favour and would lead to a counter claim for expenses accrued in the case preparation by myself. This amount would be likely to match that which you, CEL, are currently attempting to charge myself, as the registered owner of the vehicle in question.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your associated debt collectors, except by way of a confirmation that no further action will be taken on this matter and that my personal details have been removed from all your records.

Yours …



Could I have some critique please.

I have added the text from this http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=131763 which I hope is still relevant for me.

For ease, this was the original text,

QUOTE
[Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc




Cheers

This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 22:53
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ostell
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 22:59
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You meant unenforceable perhaps? para 4

You can't make a counterclaim for costs

There is no such thing as a registered owner
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 07:50
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"and would lead to a counter claim for expenses accrued in the case preparation by myself. "
Nope, you cannot counter claim for expenses. Theyre called costs (of the claim) and are dealt with witihn the claim. You could instead counterclaim for harassment, breach of DPA2018 (they have no reaosnable cause to process your data any longer) etc.
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EggDogFrog
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 11:07
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Thanks both for reading through ...

QUOTE
You meant unenforceable perhaps? para 4
v good point

QUOTE
You can't make a counterclaim for costs
I thought my wording might be wrong

QUOTE
There is no such thing as a registered owner
only registered keeper??
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 11:10
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Yep
Because there is no registtration of who owns a car. No central DB anywhere records this.
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EggDogFrog
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 11:10
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QUOTE
"and would lead to a counter claim for expenses accrued in the case preparation by myself. "
Nope, you cannot counter claim for expenses. Theyre called costs (of the claim) and are dealt with witihn the claim. You could instead counterclaim for harassment, breach of DPA2018 (they have no reaosnable cause to process your data any longer) etc.


Yes understood, counter claim is a seperate case ta

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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 11:14
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Its a counter to their claim, and is dealt with at the same time
A truly separate claim may be heard on an entirley differnet day, where a counter claim would not.
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EggDogFrog
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 12:39
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QUOTE
To whom it may concern,

I am writing with connection to the ‘Parking Charge Notice (PCN)’ referred to above.

Thank you for your letter, dated xxxx, confirming the receipt of my previous letter, dated xxxx, sent via your website outlining my dispute with regards to this PCN.

Your letter states that you are no longer accepting or dealing with appeals on this matter which is clearly a shame as it may also have been useful to hand my dispute onto POPLA. Regardless of this, it does not alter the fact that your supposed ‘charge’ is actually unenforceable.

Your letters have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is clearly no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

You have also chosen to ignored, and not address the points raised in my previous letter, which where, in brief:

1.1 The provision of evidence time and date stamped imagery in line with your code of conduct.

1.2 The provision of a copy of the contract between yourselves, Civil Enforcement Limited (CEL), and the land owners.

2.0 The use of sub-standard, un-illuminated signage at the site, which contravenes your code of conduct (see example photographs in previous letter)

3.0 The ‘forbidding’ nature of your signage at the site, meaning the terms and conditions cannot apply, case reference: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6 [2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016]



I would like to make it absolutely clear that I will not be making any payment for this alleged ‘PCN’ to CEL and any effort to artificially inflate this ‘charge’ by passing the matter onto you're in-house ‘debt collection agency’ will be ignored.

Therefore I must state that there is no point in sending any further letters in an attempt to threaten or intimate me into making any such payments. The only way that I will make any payment to CEL, will be if it is decreed by judgement of the courts. I conclude, that I remain confident that any such case would be resolved in my favour at which point I would submit a request for costs (of the claim) which would likely amount to a sum matching your current 'charge'.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your associated debt collectors, except by way of a confirmation that no further action will be taken on this matter and that my personal details have been removed from all your records.

Yours …



This is a revised ver with changes in blue biggrin.gif

Also can I just check that the additional bit I added is actually relevant and not just pointless filler. Ta

This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 12:37
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 07:46
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Only if you can show their behaviour to be unreasonable would you gain such costs. CPR27.14(2)(g)
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EggDogFrog
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 12:10
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QUOTE
Therefore I must state that there is no point in sending any further letters in an attempt to threaten or intimate me into making any such payments. The only way that I will make any payment to CEL, will be if it is decreed by judgement of the courts. I conclude, that I remain confident that any such case would be resolved in my favour at which point I would submit to the court a request for costs (of the claim) .


Ok Ta, maybe it's better to be less presumptuous about the amount and just go with the revised text above. I'm always thinking what the judge's opinion will be as it's read as evidence ect.

Need to get this sent today though so no more amends I thinks. It'll do!
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EggDogFrog
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 21:55
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So I've received two more letters from CEL. Dated start of Jan 2020, 4th one referring to the time limit of 28 days etc.

4th letter from CEL


Dated end of Jan 2020, 5th one referring to 'Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012'.

5th letter from CEL


Both seem to be stock letters and don't address the specific issues I raised. So not 100% that 5th one is correct and I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Other than that just wondering what to do, reply or just ignore them until they eventually decide to go to court?







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The Rookie
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 08:04
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QUOTE (EggDogFrog @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 22:55) *
Both seem to be stock letters and don't address the specific issues I raised.

Did you expect them to?

If you want to see their evidence then submit a Subject Access Request which they aren't free to ignore.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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EggDogFrog
post Tue, 5 Jan 2021 - 15:08
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So just an update I’m now on my letter No.11.

I was preparing for legal action as CEL like to go all the way, but it’s been over 7mths since my last letter (the 2nd from QDR Solicitors). In that down time I did scan everything to upload but I thought they may have just gone back under their stone. So for clarity and hopefully to help others I will post up all the letters scans to date soon but for now these are the details so far:

CEL - Civil Enforcement Limited
ZZPS - Debt collection
QDR - Solicitors


Letters Received
01 (CEL) - PCN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12mths + ago
02 (CEL) - PCN/Letter of Notification reg keeper liability . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later . . . . (I replied to CEL)
03 (CEL) - PCN reminder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later
04 (CEL) - Response to dispute 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1mth later . . . . (I replied to CEL)
05 (CEL) - Response to dispute 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later
06 (CEL) - PCN reminder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later
07 (ZZPS) - Debt claim . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later
08 (ZZPS) - Debt/Notice of Legal Collection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later . . . . (I replied to ZZPS)
09 (QDR) - Debt legal team . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later
10 (QDR) - Debt legal team/reminder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later
11 (CEL) - Debt reminder?? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7mth later


Letter 11
p01 Cover Letter - https://imgbox.com/53a9oRMa
p02 Cover Letter - https://imgbox.com/W5TLtKql
p03 Info - https://imgbox.com/ngD0taJA
p04 Info - https://imgbox.com/PXzRW0q2
p05 Reply Form - https://imgbox.com/qTWSNUsg
p06 Reply Form - https://imgbox.com/O7XjH2o2
p07 Reply Form - https://imgbox.com/rh8WQvij
p08 Reply Form - https://imgbox.com/3xt0sfFo
p09 SFS Full - https://imgbox.com/rwHqGoHM
p10 SFS Full - https://imgbox.com/ckBGIFmG
p11 SFS Summary - https://imgbox.com/7fso70As
p12 SFS Summary - https://imgbox.com/1YX0ITkw
p13 Beavis text - https://imgbox.com/kJmlNoCG
p14 Beavis text - https://imgbox.com/iD1kjttx
p15 Beavis text - https://imgbox.com/xOSjmRvj


So my question is should I reply to this letter, and/or should I complete everything?

My thoughts are that I do not have to complete any of it as this isn’t court proceedings, or at the very least I don’t have to complete the financial details as it’s really none of there business.

I had considered replying that …
‘this matter has previously been passed over to your legal team at QDR Solicitors, (date .. ) and I have been advised by a representative at ZZPS, your debt handlers, that if the matter is passed onto QDR by themselves and/or CEL they (QDR) will receive copies of all evidence and previous correspondence. Therefore I recommend that you, CEL, liaise with your legal team at QDR as both parties have all the details you require to consider the clear and legally valid depute and outline defence described within. It is to note that all of these details have yet to be responded to by yourselves. On this point it is also to be noted that at the location in question no attempt to correct the inadequate lighting and signage since I have brought this to your attention thus further demonstrating CEL’s complete lack of duty to even attempt to comply with their own Code of Conduct.’

Advice would be much appreciated



This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 - 15:08
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ostell
post Tue, 5 Jan 2021 - 15:16
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This is a letter before claim and it would be reasonable to respond.

You could repeat that you, as the keeper, cannot be held liable and therefore the claim is unjustified because of their clients failure to comply with the requirements of POFA and the other matters you mentioned, especially the fact that no contract offered by for bidding signs

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 - 15:20
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EggDogFrog
post Wed, 6 Jan 2021 - 14:58
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QUOTE
This is a letter before claim and it would be reasonable to respond.

Ok thanks.

So could I check - if I complete the 'Reply Form' and add a cover letter with reference to previous letters that will do? Maybe with some bullet points about the desputed factors.

'Financial Summary' is surely not required, that seems there more to suit CEL's paper hurdle attempts.

- I note that the letter is dated well beforeit will have been sent and arrived just before the xmas break. This shortens the 30day period.

Big Question! - Does anyone have an email address for CEL? I've emailed ZZPS which saves printing all the old photos etc and that would be best.

Also I believe you can post without using signed for and have proof via the receipt, is that right?



Also just thinking would a digital signiture do for the form? That way I can keep a copy easier, just text over the scans. Ta

This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 - 14:57
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ostell
post Wed, 6 Jan 2021 - 15:35
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The additional paperwork is what they are required to send you under the regulations. There is no requirement to complete the forms.

When you send with first class mail you ask for a receipt at a post office.

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 - 15:36
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