'No Permit' ticket from Civil Enforcement Ltd - how to fight please? |
'No Permit' ticket from Civil Enforcement Ltd - how to fight please? |
Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 00:51
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
Hi so I will try to be brief. I've searched the various posts here and elsewhere but I'm not sure if this case is strong enough?
The driver parked in a small neighbouring town, one passenger knew it better and advised that they could park behind a school. It was evening and dark, they drove down a short narrow passage to the back where one or two cars are parked. Room for maybe ten more cars. The driver didn't see any signs about not parking and definitely nothing about ANPR cameras or charges. They moved the car after about 2.5hrs. I have just received a PCN on returning to home (was staying elsewhere so after about two weeks). So nearly at the 14 day rate. Like that matters ha! My question is: do I have a good case? I haven't been able to revisit the site to take photos but will do asap. This will have to be in the evening as it's a school and I'm not sure what lighting was provided for any signs. I presume this is my only dispute. There are some good template letters out there like this one which I've found helpful. This letter from parkingcowboys adds the issue of the contract to carry out duties by the land owner. Not sure if this helps my case. Does anyone have any advice or thoughts please? This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:12 |
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Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 00:51
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Mon, 13 Jan 2020 - 13:19
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
I will try to post up this reply letter before I send it but in the mean time anyone with any useful comments would be appreciated.
I noticed this CEL defence which seems to have worked with great ease http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=131763 Not sure if that approach would have been better? |
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Mon, 13 Jan 2020 - 13:47
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Nope, costs, and only if the y are shown to be unreasonable. CPR27.14(2)(g), find it and read it.
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Mon, 13 Jan 2020 - 17:37
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
QUOTE Nope, costs, and only if the y are shown to be unreasonable. CPR27.14(2)(g), find it and read it. Thanks that's useful to be aware of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEH8notIAqY I am inspired by this case where the defendant ignored all letters (wrongly as admitted) until court papers where issued. In brief CEL no show and court awared over £100 in costs. There may be an issue with not repling earlier and not trying POPLA (would have though) but this example is far worse than my case as I have shown my case and wil continue with dialogue to avoid court etc |
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Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 07:45
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Thats merely the ordinary costs - half days loss of leave OR loss of pay, capped at £95.
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Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 22:45
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
Hi, this is my proposed reply to CEL after their response basically stating - too late to appeal, send £100 in 14 days or else ...
Could I have some critique please. I have added the text from this http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=131763 which I hope is still relevant for me. For ease, this was the original text,
Cheers This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 22:53 |
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Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 22:59
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
You meant unenforceable perhaps? para 4
You can't make a counterclaim for costs There is no such thing as a registered owner |
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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 07:50
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
"and would lead to a counter claim for expenses accrued in the case preparation by myself. "
Nope, you cannot counter claim for expenses. Theyre called costs (of the claim) and are dealt with witihn the claim. You could instead counterclaim for harassment, breach of DPA2018 (they have no reaosnable cause to process your data any longer) etc. |
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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 11:07
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
Thanks both for reading through ...
QUOTE You meant unenforceable perhaps? para 4 v good pointQUOTE You can't make a counterclaim for costs I thought my wording might be wrongQUOTE There is no such thing as a registered owner only registered keeper??
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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 11:10
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Yep
Because there is no registtration of who owns a car. No central DB anywhere records this. |
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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 11:10
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
QUOTE "and would lead to a counter claim for expenses accrued in the case preparation by myself. " Nope, you cannot counter claim for expenses. Theyre called costs (of the claim) and are dealt with witihn the claim. You could instead counterclaim for harassment, breach of DPA2018 (they have no reaosnable cause to process your data any longer) etc. Yes understood, counter claim is a seperate case ta |
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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 11:14
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Its a counter to their claim, and is dealt with at the same time
A truly separate claim may be heard on an entirley differnet day, where a counter claim would not. |
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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 12:39
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
This is a revised ver with changes in blue Also can I just check that the additional bit I added is actually relevant and not just pointless filler. Ta This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 12:37 |
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Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 07:46
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Only if you can show their behaviour to be unreasonable would you gain such costs. CPR27.14(2)(g)
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Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 12:10
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
Ok Ta, maybe it's better to be less presumptuous about the amount and just go with the revised text above. I'm always thinking what the judge's opinion will be as it's read as evidence ect. Need to get this sent today though so no more amends I thinks. It'll do! |
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Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 21:55
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
So I've received two more letters from CEL. Dated start of Jan 2020, 4th one referring to the time limit of 28 days etc.
4th letter from CEL Dated end of Jan 2020, 5th one referring to 'Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012'. 5th letter from CEL Both seem to be stock letters and don't address the specific issues I raised. So not 100% that 5th one is correct and I'd be interested in your thoughts. Other than that just wondering what to do, reply or just ignore them until they eventually decide to go to court? |
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Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 08:04
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,195 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Both seem to be stock letters and don't address the specific issues I raised. Did you expect them to? If you want to see their evidence then submit a Subject Access Request which they aren't free to ignore. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 5 Jan 2021 - 15:08
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
So just an update I’m now on my letter No.11.
I was preparing for legal action as CEL like to go all the way, but it’s been over 7mths since my last letter (the 2nd from QDR Solicitors). In that down time I did scan everything to upload but I thought they may have just gone back under their stone. So for clarity and hopefully to help others I will post up all the letters scans to date soon but for now these are the details so far: CEL - Civil Enforcement Limited Letters Received 01 (CEL) - PCN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12mths + ago 02 (CEL) - PCN/Letter of Notification reg keeper liability . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later . . . . (I replied to CEL) 03 (CEL) - PCN reminder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later 04 (CEL) - Response to dispute 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1mth later . . . . (I replied to CEL) 05 (CEL) - Response to dispute 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later 06 (CEL) - PCN reminder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later 07 (ZZPS) - Debt claim . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later 08 (ZZPS) - Debt/Notice of Legal Collection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later . . . . (I replied to ZZPS) 09 (QDR) - Debt legal team . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later 10 (QDR) - Debt legal team/reminder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1mth later 11 (CEL) - Debt reminder?? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7mth later Letter 11 p01 Cover Letter - https://imgbox.com/53a9oRMa p02 Cover Letter - https://imgbox.com/W5TLtKql p03 Info - https://imgbox.com/ngD0taJA p04 Info - https://imgbox.com/PXzRW0q2 p05 Reply Form - https://imgbox.com/qTWSNUsg p06 Reply Form - https://imgbox.com/O7XjH2o2 p07 Reply Form - https://imgbox.com/rh8WQvij p08 Reply Form - https://imgbox.com/3xt0sfFo p09 SFS Full - https://imgbox.com/rwHqGoHM p10 SFS Full - https://imgbox.com/ckBGIFmG p11 SFS Summary - https://imgbox.com/7fso70As p12 SFS Summary - https://imgbox.com/1YX0ITkw p13 Beavis text - https://imgbox.com/kJmlNoCG p14 Beavis text - https://imgbox.com/iD1kjttx p15 Beavis text - https://imgbox.com/xOSjmRvj So my question is should I reply to this letter, and/or should I complete everything? My thoughts are that I do not have to complete any of it as this isn’t court proceedings, or at the very least I don’t have to complete the financial details as it’s really none of there business. I had considered replying that … ‘this matter has previously been passed over to your legal team at QDR Solicitors, (date .. ) and I have been advised by a representative at ZZPS, your debt handlers, that if the matter is passed onto QDR by themselves and/or CEL they (QDR) will receive copies of all evidence and previous correspondence. Therefore I recommend that you, CEL, liaise with your legal team at QDR as both parties have all the details you require to consider the clear and legally valid depute and outline defence described within. It is to note that all of these details have yet to be responded to by yourselves. On this point it is also to be noted that at the location in question no attempt to correct the inadequate lighting and signage since I have brought this to your attention thus further demonstrating CEL’s complete lack of duty to even attempt to comply with their own Code of Conduct.’ Advice would be much appreciated This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 - 15:08 |
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Tue, 5 Jan 2021 - 15:16
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
This is a letter before claim and it would be reasonable to respond.
You could repeat that you, as the keeper, cannot be held liable and therefore the claim is unjustified because of their clients failure to comply with the requirements of POFA and the other matters you mentioned, especially the fact that no contract offered by for bidding signs This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 - 15:20 |
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Wed, 6 Jan 2021 - 14:58
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,153 |
QUOTE This is a letter before claim and it would be reasonable to respond. Ok thanks. So could I check - if I complete the 'Reply Form' and add a cover letter with reference to previous letters that will do? Maybe with some bullet points about the desputed factors. 'Financial Summary' is surely not required, that seems there more to suit CEL's paper hurdle attempts. - I note that the letter is dated well beforeit will have been sent and arrived just before the xmas break. This shortens the 30day period. Big Question! - Does anyone have an email address for CEL? I've emailed ZZPS which saves printing all the old photos etc and that would be best. Also I believe you can post without using signed for and have proof via the receipt, is that right? Also just thinking would a digital signiture do for the form? That way I can keep a copy easier, just text over the scans. Ta This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 - 14:57 |
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Wed, 6 Jan 2021 - 15:35
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
The additional paperwork is what they are required to send you under the regulations. There is no requirement to complete the forms.
When you send with first class mail you ask for a receipt at a post office. This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 - 15:36 |
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