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PCN 48j stopped outside school with no visible road marking
coffee_addict
post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 02:26
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Got a 48j (Stopped or restricted area outside a school etc) enforced by video camera. The video shows I stopped for about 10 seconds to let a passenger alight. The council's video does show after I move off that there are no discernible road markings indicating a stopping restriction where I stopped (or if there were they are worn beyond recognition).

There is a single yellow line just about visible but I don't think this is relevant to the PCN at all.

PCN: https://filedropper.com/d/s/S2YVPVzmIlGfpoAP7pz8dCND7azoHI
Video: https://filedropper.com/d/s/XyWPaJU1Vodu1KAhqkXa8E9oL6L9sz
Photos:
https://filedropper.com/d/s/1036WnEt757see5CzNfO83ghY9Sm39
https://filedropper.com/d/s/sojAPC3frwoRT2E3lYtS1yiuLwCCwK
https://filedropper.com/d/s/BVN3PdImfJIYoacvah2FXepuThjM7O

Looking on google streetview, I can see that there were yellow zig zag lines and school marking visible in the past:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6136012,-...;8i8192?ucbcb=1

On the council's photos you can just about make out the faded remnants of a zig zag line a few metres BEFORE the place I stopped. I would argue the video shows there are no markings where I stopped or at best a couple of small splodges of paint.

Do you think there a viable challenge here based on the photos - on the grounds that no road markings indicating the restrictions were discernible and therefore the alleged contravention did not occur? Or are there any other grounds to challenge?

Would it help to take more photos?

Really appreciate any advice.

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post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 02:26
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TMC Towcester
post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 07:03
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Given it appears to be the driver dropping off a schoolboy. it's a bit of a stretch to claim s/he didn't know it was a school?..............
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Incandescent
post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 07:58
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Is the 'No Stopping' sign still there ?

Looking at the video, it clearly shows a schoolboy getting out, so this is obviously a regular drop-off. As such I can't see any appeal at adjudication succeeding, unless there is a fatal error in the PCN. It has all the look of a driver just chancing their arm hoping not to be detected.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 08:02
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Rob232
post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 08:44
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I can't see any yellow paint where the driver stopped. The restriction is not signed adequately, and of course was never decriminalised.


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 27 Feb 2023 - 18:31) *
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TMC Towcester
post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 09:53
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There's a clear single yellow though which presumably signifies something.

Jesus H - just watched the whole video, the driver is lucky a schoolkid wasn't knocked over with that '3-point turn' manoeuvre - a driving test fail with that much bodywork over the pavement...........
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stamfordman
post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 09:59
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So you are relying on the faded markings even though you know it's a no stopping clearway?

Have to say the video doesn't show the best of driving with kids around and this is what an adjudicator would see and the zigzags are visible on the video at the start of the sequence.

It's also a good advert for the need for school streets...



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DancingDad
post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 10:07
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NO clearway marking, no contravention...simples

The video shows nothing that could be construed as a substantially compliant marking that adequately conveys the restriction to any motorist.

Putting aside any pontification about driving or that it is a regular drop off, the council have a duty to place and maintain signage, the video clearly shows that they have failed.
It is not to the driver to guess, only to obey such signs as are present.
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coffee_addict
post Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 23:23
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 09:59) *
So you are relying on the faded markings even though you know it's a no stopping clearway?

Have to say the video doesn't show the best of driving with kids around and this is what an adjudicator would see and the zigzags are visible on the video at the start of the sequence.

It's also a good advert for the need for school streets...

No, actually I had no idea it was a clearway there until I saw the Google street view images. It was not a regular drop off but very much a one off due to the tube strike.

In hindsight I do agree the turn was REALLY poor driving especially with kids around. I thought it would be ok to nip onto the dropped kerb/crossover but having refreshed myself on the Highway Code I see that would violate rule 145.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 10:07) *
NO clearway marking, no contravention...simples

The video shows nothing that could be construed as a substantially compliant marking that adequately conveys the restriction to any motorist.

Putting aside any pontification about driving or that it is a regular drop off, the council have a duty to place and maintain signage, the video clearly shows that they have failed.
It is not to the driver to guess, only to obey such signs as are present.

Brilliant. How's the below for an informal challenge? I've tried to keep it brief but is there anything else worth adding?

The alleged contravention is "stopped in a restricted area outside a school, a hospital or a fire, police or ambulance station when prohibited (camera enforcement)".

As is clearly visible from the CCTV footage provided when the vehicle is shown moving off (from 14 seconds onwards into the clip), there are no road markings indicating a clearway at the location where the vehicle was stopped. The council has a duty to place and maintain signage of any restrictions. Since no restrictions were marked, either: (1) there were no restrictions at the relevant location; or (2) the council has failed in its duty to adequately provide substantially compliant markings that adequately convey the restriction. In either case, the alleged contravention cannot have occurred.

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DancingDad
post Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 10:53
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Works for me.
One thing, this is not an Informal Challenge, with a postal PCN it acts like an NTO so this is Formal.
An rejection would mean next step is adjudicator.
Given the lack of markings I would not be worried on that, can never give a 100% guarantee but to me this should be easily winnable
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 14:33
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 10:53) *
Works for me.
One thing, this is not an Informal Challenge, with a postal PCN it acts like an NTO so this is Formal.
An rejection would mean next step is adjudicator.
Given the lack of markings I would not be worried on that, can never give a 100% guarantee but to me this should be easily winnable



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coffee_addict
post Thu, 1 Dec 2022 - 13:48
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 10:53) *
Works for me.
One thing, this is not an Informal Challenge, with a postal PCN it acts like an NTO so this is Formal.
An rejection would mean next step is adjudicator.
Given the lack of markings I would not be worried on that, can never give a 100% guarantee but to me this should be easily winnable

Ah ok, I hadn't realised this. Have submitted now and will update.
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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Dec 2022 - 01:00
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This is a virtually guaranteed win, because apart from anything else, stopping on school zig-zag markings is, like stopping on a red route, not a decriminalised parking contravention (at least not under this legislation).


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coffee_addict
post Fri, 3 Feb 2023 - 21:22
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Hillingdon wrote back to say they "have decided to take no further action. Your comments have been noted in relation to the above PCN..."

Thanks all.
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