PCN 48j stopped outside school with no visible road marking |
PCN 48j stopped outside school with no visible road marking |
Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 02:26
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 23 Jan 2017 Member No.: 89,842 |
Got a 48j (Stopped or restricted area outside a school etc) enforced by video camera. The video shows I stopped for about 10 seconds to let a passenger alight. The council's video does show after I move off that there are no discernible road markings indicating a stopping restriction where I stopped (or if there were they are worn beyond recognition).
There is a single yellow line just about visible but I don't think this is relevant to the PCN at all. PCN: https://filedropper.com/d/s/S2YVPVzmIlGfpoAP7pz8dCND7azoHI Video: https://filedropper.com/d/s/XyWPaJU1Vodu1KAhqkXa8E9oL6L9sz Photos: https://filedropper.com/d/s/1036WnEt757see5CzNfO83ghY9Sm39 https://filedropper.com/d/s/sojAPC3frwoRT2E3lYtS1yiuLwCCwK https://filedropper.com/d/s/BVN3PdImfJIYoacvah2FXepuThjM7O Looking on google streetview, I can see that there were yellow zig zag lines and school marking visible in the past: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6136012,-...;8i8192?ucbcb=1 On the council's photos you can just about make out the faded remnants of a zig zag line a few metres BEFORE the place I stopped. I would argue the video shows there are no markings where I stopped or at best a couple of small splodges of paint. Do you think there a viable challenge here based on the photos - on the grounds that no road markings indicating the restrictions were discernible and therefore the alleged contravention did not occur? Or are there any other grounds to challenge? Would it help to take more photos? Really appreciate any advice. |
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Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 02:26
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Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 07:03
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,074 Joined: 17 Nov 2015 Member No.: 80,686 |
Given it appears to be the driver dropping off a schoolboy. it's a bit of a stretch to claim s/he didn't know it was a school?..............
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Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 07:58
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Is the 'No Stopping' sign still there ?
Looking at the video, it clearly shows a schoolboy getting out, so this is obviously a regular drop-off. As such I can't see any appeal at adjudication succeeding, unless there is a fatal error in the PCN. It has all the look of a driver just chancing their arm hoping not to be detected. This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 08:02 |
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Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 08:44
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 643 Joined: 21 Nov 2012 Member No.: 58,447 |
I can't see any yellow paint where the driver stopped. The restriction is not signed adequately, and of course was never decriminalised.
-------------------- Please read the sticky here http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1755543 before posting a new case, or possibly after you posted it so that you can edit it. In any event, please read it.
Thanks Never, ever go for a postal decision. |
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Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 09:53
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,074 Joined: 17 Nov 2015 Member No.: 80,686 |
There's a clear single yellow though which presumably signifies something.
Jesus H - just watched the whole video, the driver is lucky a schoolkid wasn't knocked over with that '3-point turn' manoeuvre - a driving test fail with that much bodywork over the pavement........... |
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Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 09:59
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
So you are relying on the faded markings even though you know it's a no stopping clearway?
Have to say the video doesn't show the best of driving with kids around and this is what an adjudicator would see and the zigzags are visible on the video at the start of the sequence. It's also a good advert for the need for school streets... |
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Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 10:07
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
NO clearway marking, no contravention...simples
The video shows nothing that could be construed as a substantially compliant marking that adequately conveys the restriction to any motorist. Putting aside any pontification about driving or that it is a regular drop off, the council have a duty to place and maintain signage, the video clearly shows that they have failed. It is not to the driver to guess, only to obey such signs as are present. |
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Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 23:23
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 23 Jan 2017 Member No.: 89,842 |
So you are relying on the faded markings even though you know it's a no stopping clearway? Have to say the video doesn't show the best of driving with kids around and this is what an adjudicator would see and the zigzags are visible on the video at the start of the sequence. It's also a good advert for the need for school streets... No, actually I had no idea it was a clearway there until I saw the Google street view images. It was not a regular drop off but very much a one off due to the tube strike. In hindsight I do agree the turn was REALLY poor driving especially with kids around. I thought it would be ok to nip onto the dropped kerb/crossover but having refreshed myself on the Highway Code I see that would violate rule 145. NO clearway marking, no contravention...simples The video shows nothing that could be construed as a substantially compliant marking that adequately conveys the restriction to any motorist. Putting aside any pontification about driving or that it is a regular drop off, the council have a duty to place and maintain signage, the video clearly shows that they have failed. It is not to the driver to guess, only to obey such signs as are present. Brilliant. How's the below for an informal challenge? I've tried to keep it brief but is there anything else worth adding? The alleged contravention is "stopped in a restricted area outside a school, a hospital or a fire, police or ambulance station when prohibited (camera enforcement)". As is clearly visible from the CCTV footage provided when the vehicle is shown moving off (from 14 seconds onwards into the clip), there are no road markings indicating a clearway at the location where the vehicle was stopped. The council has a duty to place and maintain signage of any restrictions. Since no restrictions were marked, either: (1) there were no restrictions at the relevant location; or (2) the council has failed in its duty to adequately provide substantially compliant markings that adequately convey the restriction. In either case, the alleged contravention cannot have occurred. |
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Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 10:53
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Works for me.
One thing, this is not an Informal Challenge, with a postal PCN it acts like an NTO so this is Formal. An rejection would mean next step is adjudicator. Given the lack of markings I would not be worried on that, can never give a 100% guarantee but to me this should be easily winnable |
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Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 14:33
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Works for me. One thing, this is not an Informal Challenge, with a postal PCN it acts like an NTO so this is Formal. An rejection would mean next step is adjudicator. Given the lack of markings I would not be worried on that, can never give a 100% guarantee but to me this should be easily winnable +1 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 1 Dec 2022 - 13:48
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 23 Jan 2017 Member No.: 89,842 |
Works for me. One thing, this is not an Informal Challenge, with a postal PCN it acts like an NTO so this is Formal. An rejection would mean next step is adjudicator. Given the lack of markings I would not be worried on that, can never give a 100% guarantee but to me this should be easily winnable Ah ok, I hadn't realised this. Have submitted now and will update. |
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Sat, 3 Dec 2022 - 01:00
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
This is a virtually guaranteed win, because apart from anything else, stopping on school zig-zag markings is, like stopping on a red route, not a decriminalised parking contravention (at least not under this legislation).
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 3 Feb 2023 - 21:22
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 23 Jan 2017 Member No.: 89,842 |
Hillingdon wrote back to say they "have decided to take no further action. Your comments have been noted in relation to the above PCN..."
Thanks all. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 11:52 |