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PCN Haringey Code 12
tt28
post Sat, 13 Sep 2014 - 09:42
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Hi,

So we drove into London to visit some friends on a Sunday and parked in residence parking zone.
From our understanding of the sign parking restrictions didn't apply on Sunday unless a match or event was on.

There wasn't a match, and no signs around about an event. I later checked the council website, and there was no mention of an event on that particular day.
Anyway we received the code 12 penalty and on driving out of the area noticed the neighboring street cars also had notices. Must have been over 40 PCN's.
I appealed to the council which was reject (see attached), and from their response I'm questioning my understanding of the signage(attached).

Should I be paying this or can I continue to appeal, and how?
Thanks.




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post Sat, 13 Sep 2014 - 09:42
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DancingDad
post Sat, 13 Sep 2014 - 10:01
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If you pardon the expression, WTF?

Councils have a mandatory duty to place signs as needed to adequately convey the restrictions that apply in parking places.
Motorists have an equal duty to check such signs and comply with them.

That sign is in two sections with a clear division between the two.
The first section deals with Mon-Sat and as such has no effect.
The second section deals with Match days and includes Sundays and public holidays within the match day section.

If they meant there to be three sections, they should have made it three sections.
If they meant the sign to show restrictions on every Sunday and public holiday, it should have been in it's own section or included in the first.

By lumping it in Match Day restrictions they have created ambiguity, an uncertainty in meaning. Totally inadequate.
You read the sign, you understood that Sunday restrictions only applied on Match Days (may not make much sense but so?). You complied with your understanding of the sign.

CPZ entry signs may have shown Sunday restrictions but they only apply to single yellow lines throughout the zone, Parking bays are islands within the sea of yellow line restrictions and have their own sign. That is the only operative one.

I'd take this all the way, cannot see an adjudicator deciding otherwise.

Post up what you sent to them please. And the PCN.

My personal feeling is write back immediately with words similar to above but lets see what you have already sent so we can make sure it is a new challenge that they must consider

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 - 10:14
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tt28
post Sat, 13 Sep 2014 - 10:38
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Unfortunately I didn't keep a record of the online appeal. And I can't retrieve it from the council website.
I simply uploaded the photo in the first post and stated the sign was unclear. That I parked on a Sunday and that there was no match and that I did not see any signs showing an event on.

Councils response just seems to state the sign is clear. But as I saw leaving the area, I wasn't the only one misunderstanding the signs.







These are the councils photos


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hcandersen
post Sat, 13 Sep 2014 - 10:52
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As per DD, the lower sign has no legal effect unless the time of the contravention was a 'match or event day'.
Their letter implies that the restriction applies on all Sundays. That could be true but only if every Sunday is a 'match or event day'.
As per DD, write to them and thank them for their letter dated ****** and ask them what match or event was occurring on the day of the contravention and where notice of this was posted in the vicinity of the parking place. Don't say you agree or disagree with their comments and don't argue points, just ask for this information.
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Guest_Bogsy_*
post Sat, 13 Sep 2014 - 18:28
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I agree with those above. Take it all the way.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 13 Sep 2014 - 18:52
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Take them all the way for a disgracefully misleading sign. They should be hanging their heads in deep shame, but we all know shame has been abolished in 21st century Britain, so make them squirm at PATAS, the best alternative.
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astralite
post Sat, 13 Sep 2014 - 20:44
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Agree

Just one small query: In what I take is your photo, there appears to have been a temporary sign fixed to the post. Photo taken at the time or later?
Recall if there was anything relevant or otherwise e. g. a planning application, advertising…?
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tt28
post Mon, 15 Sep 2014 - 21:48
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Thanks for the support. Will be posting my letter tomorrow.

astralite, that temp sign as an advert. nothing related to parking or events.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 15 Sep 2014 - 22:07
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Post your draft first for comment/tuning
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tt28
post Sun, 23 Nov 2014 - 17:25
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So a couple of weeks ago I received the following letters.


So my initial request for information was just countered with a standard response.

Should I actually mention anything specific in the formal challenge or just write something fairly generic and move on to PATAS?

Thanks for the help.

This post has been edited by tt28: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 - 23:53
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Incandescent
post Sun, 23 Nov 2014 - 20:18
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Sorry, but they are almost unreadable as they can't be zoomed. However, when you formally challenge make sure you point out their failure to consider your appeal. Failure to consider is a procedural impropriety.
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tt28
post Sun, 23 Nov 2014 - 23:52
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Hi Incandescent,
Hopefully this is better. Must have used the wrong settings.



I'll definitely mention that.
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tt28
post Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 12:47
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Follow on to my last letter.
I received this(see attached), which mean I'm now in the process of writing to Patas.
Is there anything I should specifically mention to them concerning this case?




Thanks,
TT

This post has been edited by tt28: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 12:48
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DancingDad
post Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 13:32
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And somebody pays these muppets ?
Could do with seeing what you wrote to them?

CPZ restrictions, correctly signed at entrances, complying to regulations or fully authorised have absolutely no bearing on restrictions on a parking bay in that zone.
The restriction on the zone does mention Sundays, in the match day section of the sign. No match day, no contravention.
If they mean otherwise, they should say so.

So contravention did not occur
No adequate signage in place to show that restrictions applied on every Sunday. Signs only show Sundays that coincide with match days.

Procedural Impropriety.
Failure to consider informal representations (as evidenced by the letter of 27/10/14) though again, we could do with seeing what you wrote.
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tt28
post Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 14:07
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Thanks DancingDad.
I'll expand on my appeal letter with the points you have mentioned.

Prior to the traffic management letter above I simply asked a few questions whilst remaining neutral
"Thank you for the letter received, dated 29/08/24.
I have a couple of queries that I would like answered.
1) On the day of the said contravention was there a match or event taking place?
2) If a match or event was taking place, was a notice/s of this posted in the vicinity of the
parking place? Please explain the exact locations if possible.
Yours sincerely,"
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orford
post Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 14:23
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It seems they have signed it correctly:

QUOTE
Finsbury Park zones
Operational Hours

Normal operational hours

Monday to Saturday: 8.30am to 6.30pm

Arsenal Match Day and Finsbury Park Event days only

Monday to Saturday: 8.30am to 8.30pm.
Sundays and Public Holidays: 12noon to 4.30pm


http://www.haringey.gov.uk/environment-and...rk-b-and-c-cpzs

It's the muppets at Haringey who can't interpret their own signs correctly.

This post has been edited by orford: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 14:26
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DancingDad
post Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 14:40
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QUOTE (orford @ Sun, 25 Jan 2015 - 14:23) *
It seems they have signed it correctly:

QUOTE
Finsbury Park zones
Operational Hours

Normal operational hours

Monday to Saturday: 8.30am to 6.30pm

Arsenal Match Day and Finsbury Park Event days only

Monday to Saturday: 8.30am to 8.30pm.
Sundays and Public Holidays: 12noon to 4.30pm


http://www.haringey.gov.uk/environment-and...rk-b-and-c-cpzs

It's the muppets at Haringey who can't interpret their own signs correctly.


Good spot and well worth adding a screen shot to PATAS appeal. It applies to the CPZ restrictions not the actual parking space but is good indication of the way the sign should (and could) be interpreted.

Forget the PI I mentioned earlier, not answering a question, even in a crass manner, is not an impropriety.
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