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Parked in a permit space, Mother in Laws - who'd have them?
daviddaviddavid
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 11:23
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MIL who is elderly and disabled and is not always as good at reading signs as she should be parked in a residents bay and got ticketed.

She displayed her disabled badge and thought that would cover it. In fact she could have just parked on the double lines next to the bay and been perfectly ok.

She has contravention 16

She was parked at 7:53pm on a weekday

The sign covering the bays is

I can appeal pleading her age and disability however is there any other wriggle room or something else I can check out?

Thanks

This post has been edited by daviddaviddavid: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 11:25
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post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 11:23
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peterguk
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 11:24
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As is usual here, post all sides of PCN.


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daviddaviddavid
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 13:32
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This is the PCN







Hope you can help





If she had only reversed onto the double lines she would have been OK.

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stamfordman
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 13:51
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Birmingham doesn't say you can't park in a permit bay. But not that you can either.

https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/bluebadgeparking
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hcandersen
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 14:05
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It does if you click on their download link - it repeats the Blue Badge booklet pages.

OP, pl repost the PCN leaving in all locations, dates and times.

The 14-day period ends on 19th.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 14:17
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:05) *
It does if you click on their download link - it repeats the Blue Badge booklet pages.


i know but it's rather buried in a Word doc.

Given that BB parking in permit bays is allowed by some councils the primary web page should be more forthcoming.
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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 14:28
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I had a look at a couple of Birmingham TROs (though not the specific one for this location) and they don't seem to exempt BB holders from residents/business bays


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stamfordman
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:00
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:28) *
I had a look at a couple of Birmingham TROs (though not the specific one for this location) and they don't seem to exempt BB holders from residents/business bays



Yes that's apparent.

OP - was MIL coming in from outside B'ham and not aware of rules?
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daviddaviddavid
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 10:49
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Hope the above helps.

My mother in law is in her eighties and I suspect the whole concept of residents parking has passed her by! She certainly wouldn't be able to go on the City Council website and find out if disabled parking is allowed or not, let alone the downloading a Word document. She is from Birmingham as I am, but to be honest I wouldn't have known if disabled parking was allowed. The sign, which I don't think she saw wouldn't have helped her. She is however very honest and would not have tried to get away with anything or 'cheat' only to park as close as possible to where she was going -disability does that to you!.

I would hope the council would use their discretion, but I know from a previous case I fought (with help from pepipoo) where there were stronger grounds that they probably don't even read submissions but dismiss them out of hand.

Is it worth asking for the TRO or whatever covers the residents parking scheme? Last time I asked for a TRO from Birmingham there proved not to be one for the Road concerned.

Thanks for any help.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 11:31
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I wouldn’t at this stage.

Remember, the CEO didn’t see the driver so wouldn’t know their circumstances.

I’d just submit a challenge asking them to exercise discretion. I wouldn’t draw attention to her not reading signs, but get in her age e.g. despite being ** years old I ( the challenge should come from her even if you write it) I am still an attentive driver. I misread the sign, possibly due to its complexity in referring to 3 separate and distinct classes of user with restrictions covering different days and time periods. I am sorry if my parking caused a problem. With hindsight I could have parked further back on the DYL, but I tend not to use my badge in these situations (near junctions) because although permitted I’m conscious that I could obscure other drivers’ vision.


OP, for info this configuration of traffic sign is not permitted, hence my reference to its complexity. But I’d leave making this point in an argument until a NTO arrives, if this happens.
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daviddaviddavid
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 11:33
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Thanks for the advice.

I will ensure she appeals broadly as you have suggested.

So what reference is there for the non permission of the sign?

D
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daviddaviddavid
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 12:56
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Predictably the appeal has been rejected.

The appeal was

I would like to appeal against this PCN. It was not my intent to park where I was not supposed to. Although I a am 79 years old I am a careful and attentive driver. I believed that as I am a Blue Badge holder I would be able to park in Duchess Road and that was why I displayed my blue badge (visible from the photos).

I could have used my badge to have parked further back, and closer to where I was going had I parked on the double yellow lines. I didn’t do this because I try not park near junctions out of consideration for other road users even when I am allowed to do so.

I misread the sign shown on your photos. It is quite a complex one which refers to 3 separate restrictions covering a variety of users and different days and time periods.

I am sorry if my parking has caused a problem but hope that you can use your discretion to allow my appeal.


In the past when I had a rock solid appeal and they subsequently withdrew they also rejected my appeal so I guessed this would happen




Is it time to pay? Or continue appealing. If I do so I take it I will risk losing the 50%. I read it that I can make a formal appeal and still have the 50%.

Thanks for any help

D
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stamfordman
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 12:59
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Fettered discretion - they say 'unable to take into consideration' a BB. I would hope an adjudicator would take a dim view of not taking a BB from a usually diligent senior citizen into account.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 13:04
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daviddaviddavid
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 13:32
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I couldn't possibly comment on the diligence or otherwise of my mother in law !
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stamfordman
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 13:58
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Note also HCA's earlier point about the signage.
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daviddaviddavid
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 17:44
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QUOTE
this configuration of traffic sign is not permitted


I might need a bit of help on why they aren't permitted and a reference to where it says this before I risk £35.

Can anyone help please?
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cp8759
post Sat, 28 Jul 2018 - 00:12
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I would challenge this all the way. K Price might think she is "unable to withdraw" the penalty charge notice, but this is not the position in law. Even when a contravention is made out, the council always has a discretion to cancel the PCN. The council has a statutory duty, if none of the grounds for cancellation are made out, to decide whether, in the particular circumstances of the case, it should nonetheless cancel the PCN. In failing to perform this statutory duty the council has committed a procedural impropriety.


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hcandersen
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 14:56
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I’m not a great believer in this argument which has only arisen at the initial representation stage for the reason that if a NTO is served and reps made (including this point) to which the authority clarify the situation and then re-offer the discount, then many adjudcators see no harm done.

IMO, what is a greater PI is their paragrah headed Please Note ( and last line of preceding para.)

‘If you are not the registered keeper, formal reps may still be made on your behalf by contacting the registered keeper...

1. This misstates the law and your standing and with 2 and 3 could mislead the registered keeper into thinking that your previous reps, plus any additions, would be considered in parallel with any made by them. Even worse, you tell the RK that you’ve made additional reps which they undertake to consider with the RK then not making reps contrary to the clear instructions in the PCN and NTO and thereby get a charge cert.
2They refuse to consider additional reps made before a NTO is served, but this is not the best bit....
3.They then undertake to consider them along with any formal reps!

What planet are they on?


You, as you, the motorist, have no standing after the NTO has been served. They don’t know whether you are the owner at this stage, and cannot presume you are. Hideous c**k-up on the procedural front.

But getting back to their reply and the weight which might be given by an adj to the PI raised by cp.
Scenario 1
They offer the discount after a NOR. So what the hell is the purpose of their clear statement to the contrary (para. 1 page 3 refers)? Surely not to coerce you into paying!!!

Scenario 2
They don’t. In which case my example at the beginnng of this post cannot apply because they’ve not made good and cp’s PI kicks in again.

In summary, IMO do not pay.

Are you the RK and are your details up to date?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 14:57
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daviddaviddavid
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 20:12
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I have asked for and received the Traffic Regulation Order and I think I have found a mistake!

MIL's PCN is for "Parked in a Permit space without displaying a valid permit"

In the section of the TRO under Interpretation

it says

"Permit means where the council deem it appropriate the various types of permit identified in Article 2.2( c )"

BUT

There is no 2.2C in regulation. Just a 2.2 where they refer to the various types of "Parking Place"

I think the section they mean is in 2.3C where the word "Permit" as opposed to Business Permit 2.2b and Residents Permit 2.2a, is defined

The sign shown earlier in these posts and the TRO does mention "Permit Holders"

Is this a significant problem with the regulation such that she could win?

I have a pdf of the TRO but it is too big to upload and has too many pages to easily include but I would be happy to send them to anyone interested.

Appreciate your thoughts



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cp8759
post Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 02:32
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That could well save the day, I'll send you a PM with my email address, if you send me the TRO I'll put it on scribd


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