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Out of time statutory declaration rejected, Out of time statutory declaration rejected
danielz000
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 21:57
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Hi all,

A few weeks ago, a friend I live with had a knock on the door from some bailiffs who had put a control order on his car. We asked why this was and the bailiff said it was for a parking ticket for Newham. This was the first either of us had heard about it.

After a few phone calls we discovered this was actually for a bus lane offence. We eventually managed to get a few details on the offence and have no objections as to whether it occurred. My friend was driving in the bus lane.

He was advised by CAB to file a PE2 and PE3 form to stop the bailiffs continuing enforcement. We completed these forms stating that the first we knew about the PCN was the bailiff knocking on the door. We had not received any PCNs, any NIPs, Charge Certificates or Notice of Enforcements from the bailiffs.

Newham rejected the out of time request (stating it was unlikely that none of the letters were received and so he must have just ignored them) and the TEC/Court then refused the application. The letter the court sent gave no explanation as to why it was refused but the letter explains that a N244 form can be completed but this costs £100 or £255 if a hearing is wanted.

So I have a few questions (i appreciate they may not all be appropriate for this forum but any input is appreciated):

1) How would you guys/girls deal with this (currently the bailiffs want about £500)

2) Are the N244 fees refundable if a judge finds in your favor? If not, could the costs be recovered in a small claims court?

3) Why would the out of time declaration be rejected? Isn't this exactly what the form is there for?

4) Is it normal for the TEC to reject these out of time requests? Is a judge likely to see things differently?

Should we continue to argue this case, the only evidence we have of a lack of delivery is as follows:

A) I recently had a similar situation with Havering where a number of letters were never delivered (I blamed Havering for this, but in hindsight the issue was probably with royal mail). I have copies of my correspondence with Havering to this affect.

B) We started dealing with the situation as soon as we became aware of it, unlike Newham's suggestions in the rejection

C) After this happened we reported the missing letters to Royal Mail and have a reference number for this (they're clearly going to do nothing about it though)

D) My friend thinks that a debit card also went missing in the past and had to be reordered (we're gonna check this with his bank).

Any way guys, if any one has any suggestions I'd really appreciate the input, even if it's just to point us in a general direction... Obviously, there's not really any documents or photos for us to upload as we never received any.

Thanks in advance,

Daniel





Hi guys, just looking responses to other similar threads... I'll get the PE2, PE3, response from Newham and the TEC refusal uploaded ASAP.
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post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 21:57
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Starworshipper12
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:02
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I've asked a mod to move this to council and decriminalised.
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danielz000
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:23
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QUOTE (Starworshipper12 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:02) *
I've asked a mod to move this to council and decriminalised.


Sorry! Thanks for that!
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stamfordman
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:25
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Check the address on the V5C reg doc.
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danielz000
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:40
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:25) *
Check the address on the V5C reg doc.


The address is correct and Newham claimed to have sent all of the letters to this address. These legal documents should not be allowed to be sent by anything less than recorded delivery.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:44
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QUOTE (danielz000 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:40) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:25) *
Check the address on the V5C reg doc.


The address is correct and Newham claimed to have sent all of the letters to this address. These legal documents should not be allowed to be sent by anything less than recorded delivery.



Well you are missing:

PCN
Enforcement notice
Charge certificate
Order for recovery

That's four letters at least. What we usually find is that the V5C is not correct – have you got it out and checked it just now? Don't assume.

Another possibility is that it was changed just after the date of the PCN. What is the last change date of the V5C and what is the date of the PCN.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:45
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danielz000
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:48
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Here are the attachments guys. Thanks again.

PE2

Attached Image


PE3

Attached Image


NEWHAM REJECTION

Attached Image


TEC REFUSE

Attached Image



Attached Image
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danielz000
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:58
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:44) *
Well you are missing:

PCN
Enforcement notice
Charge certificate
Order for recovery

That's four letters at least. What we usually find is that the V5C is not correct – have you got it out and checked it just now? Don't assume.

Another possibility is that it was changed just after the date of the PCN. What is the last change date of the V5C and what is the date of the PCN.


I've just re-checked. The car was purchased 9 months before the PCN and has only ever been registered at this address. When we spoke to Newham they said this was the address they had. Additionally, as I mentioned, we think other letters have gone missing (but it's hard to tell what).

Cheers,

Dan
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Neil B
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:07
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:44) *
Well you are missing:

PCN
Enforcement notice
Charge certificate
Order for recovery

That's four letters at least.

The objection seems entirely reasonable as you hadn't offered any possible explanation as to what caused
four separate notices to go astray over a period of months.

Do you have such an explanation for a judge to consider?
You mentioned problems with RM?

How much is the bailiff asking for - £278 or £513 ?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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danielz000
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:34
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:07) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:44) *
Well you are missing:

PCN
Enforcement notice
Charge certificate
Order for recovery

That's four letters at least.

The objection seems entirely reasonable as you hadn't offered any possible explanation as to what caused
four separate notices to go astray over a period of months.

Do you have such an explanation for a judge to consider?
You mentioned problems with RM?

How much is the bailiff asking for - £278 or £513 ?


I have no explanation as to why or how the letters all went missing. All I can say is I am certain they did go missing and we don't believe this is the first time this has happened as I had a similar problem with a PCN from Havering and my friend thinks he recalls having a similar problem when he ordered a new bank card. As I mentioned, after this happened we logged a call with RM but they were useless. They did give us a reference number though.

Without wanting to sound argumentative, I find it odd you, the court or anyone would feel the rejection is reasonable. It's surely what the PE2 and PE3 forms are there for. If the LGs don't want to pay for recorded delivery I don't see any reason why delivery should be assumed.

The bailiffs are after £513.

Cheers

Dan
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Neil B
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:40
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QUOTE (danielz000 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:57) *
So I have a few questions (i appreciate they may not all be appropriate for this forum but any input is appreciated):

1) How would you guys/girls deal with this (currently the bailiffs want about £500)
N244 £100 IF you have something to convince the judge.

2) Are the N244 fees refundable if a judge finds in your favor? If not, could the costs be recovered in a small claims court? No.

3) Why would the out of time declaration be rejected? Isn't this exactly what the form is there for? Explained already

4) Is it normal for the TEC to reject these out of time requests? Yes
Is a judge likely to see things differently? As 1)

Should we continue to argue this case, the only evidence we have of a lack of delivery is as follows:

A) I recently had a similar situation with Havering where a number of letters were never delivered (I blamed Havering for this, but in hindsight the issue was probably with royal mail). I have copies of my correspondence with Havering to this affect.

B) We started dealing with the situation as soon as we became aware of it, unlike Newham's suggestions in the rejection

C) After this happened we reported the missing letters to Royal Mail and have a reference number for this (they're clearly going to do nothing about it though)

D) My friend thinks that a debit card also went missing in the past and had to be reordered (we're gonna check this with his bank).
If you can explain to a judge why you left all of this out and supplied no hard evidence and explain the issue tangibly and persuasively, maybe.



--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:53
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QUOTE (danielz000 @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:34) *
Without wanting to sound argumentative, I find it odd you, the court or anyone would feel the rejection is reasonable. It's surely what the PE2 and PE3 forms are there for.

You have no idea the circumstances we've seen in cases where councils were clearly wrong.
In your case, what else could Newham possibly tell the court?


QUOTE (danielz000 @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:34) *
If the LGs don't want to pay for recorded delivery I don't see any reason why delivery should be assumed.

The law deems those notices 'served'.
In this instance, Interpretation Act 1978.


Similar to the council, I'm not going to be positive and raise your hopes falsely.

You are on the back foot; up to you to improve that situation.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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danielz000
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 23:57
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:40) *
QUOTE (danielz000 @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 22:57) *
So I have a few questions (i appreciate they may not all be appropriate for this forum but any input is appreciated):

1) How would you guys/girls deal with this (currently the bailiffs want about £500)
N244 £100 IF you have something to convince the judge.

2) Are the N244 fees refundable if a judge finds in your favor? If not, could the costs be recovered in a small claims court? No.

3) Why would the out of time declaration be rejected? Isn't this exactly what the form is there for? Explained already

4) Is it normal for the TEC to reject these out of time requests? Yes
Is a judge likely to see things differently? As 1)

Should we continue to argue this case, the only evidence we have of a lack of delivery is as follows:

A) I recently had a similar situation with Havering where a number of letters were never delivered (I blamed Havering for this, but in hindsight the issue was probably with royal mail). I have copies of my correspondence with Havering to this affect.

B) We started dealing with the situation as soon as we became aware of it, unlike Newham's suggestions in the rejection

C) After this happened we reported the missing letters to Royal Mail and have a reference number for this (they're clearly going to do nothing about it though)

D) My friend thinks that a debit card also went missing in the past and had to be reordered (we're gonna check this with his bank).
If you can explain to a judge why you left all of this out and supplied no hard evidence and explain the issue tangibly and persuasively, maybe.



Thanks Neil.

Given the tiny explanation field on the pe2 form we expected the simple fact we never received any letters to be enough reason for the OoT to be accepted. Assuming they were actually sent, how could we even go about explaining RM failures....

We also didn't think the issue I had with Havering was relevant in regards to the pe2 form and didn't think about the missing bank card until after filing the pe2/pe3. The RM reference we got was logged after the bailiff arrived so doubted that would stick too.

Additionally, this could have just as easily been the first time letters went missing and we'd have absolutely no evidence or explanation as to what happened.

It's frustrating the burden of proof is on us to prove something didn't happen (very difficult to prove letters never arrived) than the LG to prove something did happen (easy if they'd have been sent recorded delivery).

I think for £100 we may have to try the N244 form....
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Neil B
post Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:37
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QUOTE (danielz000 @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:57) *
I think for £100 we may have to try the N244 form....

If you do so then run any draft past us before filing.

You are being very negative about RM issues yet it seems all you have. Be more constructive.

You haven't, for instance, explained anything about that issue here, beyond "Havering" and "debit card".


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:52
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QUOTE (danielz000 @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:57) *
Given the tiny explanation field on the pe2 form

An expandable box Word version is (was) available from TEC but nothing to stop you attaching
whatever you need to.

QUOTE (danielz000 @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:57) *
We also didn't think the issue I had with Havering was relevant in regards to the pe2 form

It was asking you to explain why you could not have filed PE3 in time originally. Problems with RM is
essential supporting evidence.

That you didn't receive all 4 notices over a few months >

Many hundreds of such applications go through TEC daily. It's just a big factory.
A large % of those are just trying their luck, which unfortunately reflects on the honest.
Hence the need for evidence.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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danielz000
post Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 03:46
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 01:52) *
It was asking you to explain why you could not have filed PE3 in time originally. Problems with RM is
essential supporting evidence.


Cheers Neil. We'll fill in the N244 form and post it here before sending it in.

That pe2 form just asks for the reason for filling late, not for an explanation. We provided the reason but with hindsight supporting evidence would have been a good idea.

Dan
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stamfordman
post Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 09:59
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Have you had sight of a copy of the PCN? I think this is essential to resolve any issues with the address.

Also, what type of property do you live in.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 10:57
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OP, mail does not just go missing. Millions of people have their mail delivered without mishap, so what are your circumstances?

As per stamfordman, you must look at this aspect.

I live in a detached house fronting **** Rd. My house number is clearly displayed and visible from the footway. There is a single and easily accessible letterbox. We do not have a dog!

Or, I live in a block of flats with a communal letterbox.

Give us some facts.

If you are going to go the N244 route and have nothing other than you did not receive the letters, then add that despite the authority's claims to the contrary in their letter dated *** that 'all the statutory notices were served by post', there are sufficient indicators in that letter to suggest that it was not written after careful consideration of the facts in this case, but bears all the hallmarks of a boilerplate response. In this regard I would respectfully draw the judge's attention to the following glaring anomalies.



As the PCN relates to a bus lane contravention, the enforcement process is PCN; Enforcement Notice; Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery i.e. 4 statutory notices sent by post, and not the '3 postal notices' of PCN; Notice to Owner(in lieu of an Enforcement Notice?); Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery referred to by the authority. (Paras. 3 and 6 of their letter refer).

I can explain the false reasoning of their response no better than I can why 3 or 4 notices were not received.

I have looked at the evidence of the contravention and it seems clear that I was at fault and would therefore pay the discount were the PCN to be reissued which in the circumstances I submit would be the fair and equitable outcome. I therefore ask that permission to file an Out of Time declaration be granted.

Would be my take.
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Neil B
post Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 12:33
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 11:57) *
As the PCN relates to a bus lane contravention, the enforcement process is PCN; Enforcement Notice; Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery i.e. 4 statutory notices sent by post, and not the '3 postal notices' of PCN; Notice to Owner(in lieu of an Enforcement Notice?); Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery referred to by the authority. (Paras. 3 and 6 of their letter refer).

I can explain the false reasoning of their response no better than I can why 3 or 4 notices were not received.

Agreed except how many post here saying bus lane and it turns out to be '33'.

Daniel, look online and tell us what it says.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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danielz000
post Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 12:33
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 10:59) *
Have you had sight of a copy of the PCN? I think this is essential to resolve any issues with the address.

Also, what type of property do you live in.


After the bailiff came I called the council and asked them to send a copy of everything which they did. They apparently had the correct address. I think it might be worth rechecking that too though.

It's just a regular house with a letter box, no chance that they went missing if they made it through the letter box.
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