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Vehicle towed minutes after suspension notice put up
Helpagirlout
post Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 19:55
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Hi Guys,

I'm new to this forum and am hoping you can help. I have browsed through similar threads that could be useful to my situation but haven't found any circumstances that precisely match mine.

I have recently moved to Newham and started parking my car on the side of the road where many other cars were parked. There have never been any parking signs on this road so I was unaware that this was (or was about to become) a problem. I work in the city so don't use my car during the week and only return to it at the weekends.

As usual, I parked my car on Sunday 27 January and left it there for the week. However, when I looked out of my flat window on Saturday 2 Feburary I noticed that there were a lot of tow trucks driving down the road. My heart immediately sank and I ran downstairs to find that my car had disappeared. I immediately text TRACE and found that my car had been taken to Newham Vehicle Pound and that I would have to pay £265 to have it released.

I now understand that my car was towed because the council had planned to carry out temporary road works and had placed a temporary suspension notice on the side of the road. The reason I am asking for help is because I don't believe that the way the council executed this plan was fair or reasonable. I have learned from various individuals who found themselves in the same situation that the parking notices were placed on the side of the road shortly after 12am on Saturday 2 Feburary, PCNs were immediately issued to all vehicles on this road and then immediately towed. This occurred during the middle of the night, leaving all vehicle-owners completely unaware without any notice whatsoever.

I spoke to the lady that worked at the pound and she told me that the council are required to give a minimum of 3 days notice before towing vehicles and carrying out works but I can't find any legislation supporting this. Is anyone with a little more experience in this area able to point me in the right direction?

I have attached photos of the signs placed on the side of the road and the documentation provided to me at the pound. Any help would be incredibly appreciated.

xxx
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post Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 19:55
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cp8759
post Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 21:06
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Mad Mick V is an expert on these but as I understand it, to enforce a TTRO the council must comply with The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992 and regulation 3 is of particular interest: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/12...gulation/3/made

However leaving one's car on a London street for a week at a time is always a risk, even if they had installed the signs on the Monday morning you wouldn't have seen them in time, and five days would be adequate notice for most adjudicators.


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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 10:03
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This is a strange one because they have linked it to environmental legislation so the prohibition can come into force "without delay".

So it is a Section 14(2) prohibition. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/14

In essence this is a rolling programme of repainting the carriageway lines which is evident by the list of streets given in the TTRO.

They still have a duty to post up the TTRO on lamp posts well before the date of the work. Perhaps the OP saw A4 sheets of paper wrapped in polythene, cable tied to lamp posts before the event?

If they just erected the yellow sign with the attached TTRO that is not sufficient IMO. This is not emergency work.

This is the procedure:- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/1215/schedule/made

The OP needs to ask the Council when copies of the TTRO were posted on her street and when the yellow sign was erected. The last question should be --at what time did work commence on the cleaning and relining on Saturday 2nd February? My guess would be that no work took place because Newham will have noise and pollution protocols which will prevent some works from taking place at weekends.

If that can be proved, the Council's decision to issue PCNs at 1.47 in the morning is wholly unreasonable as will be their decision to tow the vehicle.

OP---can we see the pound documents please?

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 10:16
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hcandersen
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 12:06
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OP, forget anecdote, let's establish facts.

You parked on 27 Jan; your car was issued with a PCN and removed on 2 Feb, 6 days later; the alleged contravention is parking in a restricted street, the restriction having been imposed by an apparently undated TTRO.

Not checking for 6 days works against you, but it's not really 6 days if, for example, the signs were only erected on 2 Feb!

Action:
1. find out the date on which the sign on which they rely was erected.
2. find out the date the order was made(I cannot see this on what you've posted).

Yes, there are procedures to be followed with TTROs(in this case, for example, to place notices at the entrances to the road because 'entering' is prohibited, not just parkng or, in your case, remaining). But let's establish the facts.

And of course post the pound paperwork.
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Helpagirlout
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 13:40
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cp8759 and Mad Mick V - thank you so much for your responses, I really appreciate the help.

Update - I looked out of my window this morning to see that double yellow lines had been drawn on the road in question so that was clearly the purpose of the order.

How do I find out the date the order was made and the sign was erected? I uploaded all of the information attached to the sign in my initial post. There are approx. 6 of these attached to posts along the road, all containing the same limited information.

Also, what do you mean by pound paperwork? The only paperwork I was provided with was the PCN, my receipt for payment and an appeal form. Should I have been provided with something else?

I completely understand that the Council are able to add parking restrictions to any public roads they choose and that they can issue PCNs/tow vehicles in contravention of those restrictions. The only reason I want to appeal is because I wasn't in contravention of any restriction when I parked and was provided with no notice or opportunity to move my car. Even if I had have parked my car there on Friday evening, my car still would have been towed without my knowledge.

Thanks again for all of your help!
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cp8759
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 14:04
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QUOTE (Helpagirlout @ Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 13:40) *
How do I find out the date the order was made and the sign was erected?

You need to ask the council's highways department (not parking enforcement)

QUOTE (Helpagirlout @ Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 13:40) *
Also, what do you mean by pound paperwork? The only paperwork I was provided with was the PCN, my receipt for payment and an appeal form. Should I have been provided with something else?

Show us the payment receipt and the appeal form

QUOTE (Helpagirlout @ Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 13:40) *
Even if I had have parked my car there on Friday evening, my car still would have been towed without my knowledge.

We have no idea if this is true. If the signs were put on on Monday or Tuesday, they would have been there on Friday and you would have known not to park. If they were put up at 1 am on Saturday, clearly you wouldn't have known about the restriction. So it's absolutely key that you find out when the signs went up.


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phantomcrusader
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 17:22
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s.14(2) RTRA 1984 is not an order making provision. It is a notice making provision. Council seems to have muddled their intention. Giving notice follows an easier implementation process compared to a temporary order.

This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 17:23
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cp8759
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 17:41
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QUOTE (phantomcrusader @ Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 17:22) *
s.14(2) RTRA 1984 is not an order making provision. It is a notice making provision. Council seems to have muddled their intention. Giving notice follows an easier implementation process compared to a temporary order.

That's a very valid point. Section 14(2) is only available if it is necessary that "the restriction or prohibition should come into force without delay", painting double yellow lines hardly sounds like urgent works. If necessity cannot be shown, the notice is arguably ultra vires and thus invalid. Aside from that, according to regulation 10 here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/12...ulation/10/made they still need to show that they gave notice to the Met Police and the London Fire Brigade.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 17:41


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phantomcrusader
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 17:49
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as s.14(2) does not give rise to an order, it can be said that the alleged contravention "Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours (temporary traffic order)" did not occur.
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 18:12
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Good luck with that one you two.

IIRC we had some similar argument during the Cheltenham Festival about 4 years back.

The relevant 2019 Order is stated at the top of the Notice. Are you saying it's not temporary?

Mick
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hcandersen
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 18:35
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OP, pl get on with establishing the substantive matters by posting docs and making requests to the relevant parts of the council as detailed above.
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phantomcrusader
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 18:47
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 18:12) *
Good luck with that one you two.

IIRC we had some similar argument during the Cheltenham Festival about 4 years back.

The relevant 2019 Order is stated at the top of the Notice. Are you saying it's not temporary?

Mick


Not quite. s.14(1) RTRA 1984 is the section for making a temporary order while s.14(2) is the section for making a temporary notice. These are two entirely different beasts with their own rules. The council claim to have made an order but quote s.14(2) as the enabling provision, which is legally wrong. The 3rd image in post 1 shows the council cannot decide if they have made an order or issued a notice. It has to be one or the other.

Regulation 3 deals with the temporary order process and regulation 10 deals with procedure for issuing a notice.

This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 19:01
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 19:06
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@hca

I am not saying our colleagues are incorrect. I am saying we've tried the argument before and it didn't find favour at adjudication, not the Cheltenham case but a similar one where members had a right run at it.

14(2) states "The traffic authority for a road may at any time by notice restrict or prohibit temporarily the use of the road" .
It then refers to 14(1), as I have already pointed out, as regards environmental procedures. It is this latter reference which links the two parts so an argument that 14(1) and 14(2) are separate and severable will be exceedingly difficult.

If on the other hand the Council are using 14(2) for immediate prohibition then the argument takes on greater momentum and the apparent lack of a TTRO should be contested.

Mick
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Helpagirlout
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 21:35
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Good evening!

I have attached the receipt and appeal form that I received from the pound.

I have also emailed the pound to find out exactly what time my car was towed and the Highway Agency to find out when the order was made and the signs were erected. I'll keep you posted on the responses I receive!

Thanks again for all of your input!
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hcandersen
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 21:53
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OP, NOT the Highway Agency(actually the national body called Highways England), you need to contact Newham council and speak to their highways department.

And ask the council parking department for photos.

@MMV, not me. I don't think an appeal on the basis that the wrong number has been put in the brackets on the order would win. However, if the wrong procedure has been followed substantially, then that's another matter. But IMO this is a long shot and frankly the OP has more important matters to attend to in the short term i.e. when the order was made and when the signs were erected.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 21:59
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cp8759
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 23:40
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Well the solution here seems obvious. In the representation that will in due course be made to the council, the council must be asked to clarify whether they have made an order under section 14(1) or issued a notice under section 14(2). It's got to be one or the other, and regulations 3 or 10 apply depending on which one it is.


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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 20:58
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If the sign says "no loading" the contravention should be a Code 02 not a Code 01. A Code 02 can also have the suffix (a) i.e.-- a TTRO.

Wrong contravention.

Mick
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Helpagirlout
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:29
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Hi Everyone,

I've rung the Council and spoken to multiple different individuals but have been told that they cannot provide me any information on when the order was made or when the signs were erected. I was told that I would just have to submit my appeal without evidence and then they would have a duty to investigate.

Their Highway Department apparently doesn't have an email address and even if they did confirm the information over the phone, they said they wouldn't be able to confirm it in writing.

Has anyone else experienced this kind of resistance before?
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cp8759
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 17:56
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It happens at times. You should therefore craft your representation accordingly.

1) Make sure you ask them to specify whether the restriction was imposed via an order under section 14(1) or a notice under section 14(2).
2) Ask them to confirm, if the restriction was imposed by means of a notice, why it was necessary for the restriction to come into force without delay.
3) Ask them to provides copies of the notifications they sent to the Metropolitan Police and the London Fire Brigade.
4) Ask for a copy of the log showing when they put the signs up, and ask them to confirm whether your vehicle appears on the log of vehicles that were parked when the notices were put up.

Put a draft on here, do not send a representation to the council without letting us check it first.

Separately to this, and without making any reference to the PCN, send a FOI request asking for details of when the order was made, and when the signs were erected.


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phantomcrusader
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 18:27
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Is the sign DfT authorised and where is the schedule listing the affected roads?
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