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Carflow pcn - no response to the appeal but escalated?
AsusForwin1
post Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 20:54
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Hello. I need help for a friend but I will put myself in their shoes.

So the driver (they) parked the car on Broadway Surface Car Park in Crawley. They bought a parking ticket from the machine (for £1.40 for 1 hour) which was a "pay and display" ticket (they still have the ticket), which they did display. They then left the car park 45 minutes after entering. The RK received a PCN fine from Carflow with a picture of the car, at the entrance. entering and leaving the car park at the correct times, saying that no amount was paid, so RK must pay £60 within 14 days or £120 thereafter.
So now the RK appealed this when they received the first letter through carflows email, sending them proof of the pay and display ticket. Some time later, they sent another letter of the fine, to the RK again appealed through carflows website. None of the appeals was responded to. Now, the RK receives a "Notice of pending legal action" letter asking to pay £120. The letter mentions that the time period for POPLA appeal is expired.

So now what can the RK do? The RK appealed but hasnt got a response yet. So they're stuck. Any help would be appreciated.

PS> The RK did get an acknowledgement email from carflow for when they appealed the first time through email.

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post Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 20:54
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ostell
post Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 22:06
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Let's see the reverse, the front fails POFA

Complain to the BPA that they have not provided a POPLA code

Post up the keepers appeal, suitably redacted

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 22:10
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Jlc
post Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 22:19
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Is the car registration correct on the ticket?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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AsusForwin1
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 02:18
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 22:06) *
Let's see the reverse, the front fails POFA

Complain to the BPA that they have not provided a POPLA code

Post up the keepers appeal, suitably redacted


Reverse:


So it was actually a drivers appeal after reading the appeal myself... not sure if it makes a difference at this point.

Appeal email:




okay so what does it actually mean for my friend if the front fails POFA?

okay noted. I will look into sending BPA an email.


QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 22:19) *
Is the car registration correct on the ticket?


There is no car registration on the ticket.


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Jlc
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 08:06
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QUOTE (AsusForwin1 @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 02:18) *
There is no car registration on the ticket.

Without a vrm they won't be able to match the payment with the stay.

However, the ticket is from a totally different parking company. Looks like they used the wrong meter?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 08:45
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PoFA fails now irrelevant as you gave away who was driving.

It's quite possible the ticket machine is operated by a different entity to the 'managing' company, I have that at a local car park.

The appeal rejection may have been by email, they all to often go to spam folders.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 09:29
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The POFA requirements are on the back but, as mentioned, the driver has been identified so of no consequence.

Check the signs in the car park, indeed post up a photo. Is the name on the sign the same as the name on the letters?

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vinba
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 09:55
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 09:06) *
QUOTE (AsusForwin1 @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 02:18) *
There is no car registration on the ticket.

Without a vrm they won't be able to match the payment with the stay.

However, the ticket is from a totally different parking company. Looks like they used the wrong meter?


Broadway surface seems to be run by RCP

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1145678,-0....3312!8i6656

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Jlc
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 10:00
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Indeed, there doesn't appear to be any connection between RCP and Carflow.

OP would need to check the location to confirm signs/meters etc.

The location seems to have a number of car parks or the carflow ANPR is monitoring somewhere it shouldn’t…


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 10:28
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OP - find car flow signs and see where they SHOULD be enforcing. If you didn't park there, then tell the. To bugger off
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AsusForwin1
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 22:41
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 08:06) *
QUOTE (AsusForwin1 @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 02:18) *
There is no car registration on the ticket.

Without a vrm they won't be able to match the payment with the stay.

However, the ticket is from a totally different parking company. Looks like they used the wrong meter?



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 08:45) *
PoFA fails now irrelevant as you gave away who was driving.

It's quite possible the ticket machine is operated by a different entity to the 'managing' company, I have that at a local car park.

The appeal rejection may have been by email, they all to often go to spam folders.


Possibly the case, but the acknowledgement email came to my normal inbox, so wouldn't the reply also do the same?


QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 09:29) *
The POFA requirements are on the back but, as mentioned, the driver has been identified so of no consequence.

Check the signs in the car park, indeed post up a photo. Is the name on the sign the same as the name on the letters?



QUOTE (vinba @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 09:55) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 09:06) *
QUOTE (AsusForwin1 @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 02:18) *
There is no car registration on the ticket.

Without a vrm they won't be able to match the payment with the stay.

However, the ticket is from a totally different parking company. Looks like they used the wrong meter?


Broadway surface seems to be run by RCP

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1145678,-0....3312!8i6656



QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 10:00) *
Indeed, there doesn't appear to be any connection between RCP and Carflow.

OP would need to check the location to confirm signs/meters etc.

The location seems to have a number of car parks or the carflow ANPR is monitoring somewhere it shouldn’t…



QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 10:28) *
OP - find car flow signs and see where they SHOULD be enforcing. If you didn't park there, then tell the. To bugger off


okay the driver went through this arch to park the car:



This was the meter used to buy a display ticket which is on the right after the arch.



Where the cars are parked on the left in the below picture is where the driver was parked. You can still see the meter on the right. And you can see from what @vinba mentioned that the car park is managed by RCP, which is also seen from the signage. I got these pictures from googlemaps, as going there myself would be a bit difficult with work and the distance travelled, but if necessary, I will still try to go take pictures myself.



https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1145749,-0....6384!8i8192

but ultimately, carflow arent giving me an option to appeal now or go to popla, so I am not sure how I am supposed to proceed. Do i email a complaint to BPA?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 22:47
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This is an invoice, in essence there is never an appeal, there is a reason why nothing is owed.

So first you need to find where at Broadway Carflow have a car park and see how you could have triggered there ANPR cameras.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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AsusForwin1
post Fri, 19 Nov 2021 - 18:20
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QUOTE (AsusForwin1 @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 22:41) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 08:06) *
QUOTE (AsusForwin1 @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 02:18) *
There is no car registration on the ticket.

Without a vrm they won't be able to match the payment with the stay.

However, the ticket is from a totally different parking company. Looks like they used the wrong meter?



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 08:45) *
PoFA fails now irrelevant as you gave away who was driving.

It's quite possible the ticket machine is operated by a different entity to the 'managing' company, I have that at a local car park.

The appeal rejection may have been by email, they all to often go to spam folders.


Possibly the case, but the acknowledgement email came to my normal inbox, so wouldn't the reply also do the same?


QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 09:29) *
The POFA requirements are on the back but, as mentioned, the driver has been identified so of no consequence.

Check the signs in the car park, indeed post up a photo. Is the name on the sign the same as the name on the letters?



QUOTE (vinba @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 09:55) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 09:06) *
QUOTE (AsusForwin1 @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 02:18) *
There is no car registration on the ticket.

Without a vrm they won't be able to match the payment with the stay.

However, the ticket is from a totally different parking company. Looks like they used the wrong meter?


Broadway surface seems to be run by RCP

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1145678,-0....3312!8i6656



QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 10:00) *
Indeed, there doesn't appear to be any connection between RCP and Carflow.

OP would need to check the location to confirm signs/meters etc.

The location seems to have a number of car parks or the carflow ANPR is monitoring somewhere it shouldn’t…



QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 10:28) *
OP - find car flow signs and see where they SHOULD be enforcing. If you didn't park there, then tell the. To bugger off


okay the driver went through this arch to park the car:



This was the meter used to buy a display ticket which is on the right after the arch.



Where the cars are parked on the left in the below picture is where the driver was parked. You can still see the meter on the right. And you can see from what @vinba mentioned that the car park is managed by RCP, which is also seen from the signage. I got these pictures from googlemaps, as going there myself would be a bit difficult with work and the distance travelled, but if necessary, I will still try to go take pictures myself.



https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1145749,-0....6384!8i8192

but ultimately, carflow arent giving me an option to appeal now or go to popla, so I am not sure how I am supposed to proceed. Do i email a complaint to BPA?



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 22:47) *
This is an invoice, in essence there is never an appeal, there is a reason why nothing is owed.

So first you need to find where at Broadway Carflow have a car park and see how you could have triggered there ANPR cameras.


okay guys, my managed to go an get some pictures. here are the pictures of the sign:









So it looks like the car park is managed by both Carflow and RCP.

Okay so my friend is saying that they try to put the registration number in the meter but the machine just printed after pressing the first letter (hence why you see a "C" on the pay and display ticket.

What do you guys think? Do i have a leg to stand on or shall i just pay it?
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Jlc
post Fri, 19 Nov 2021 - 18:46
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QUOTE (AsusForwin1 @ Fri, 19 Nov 2021 - 18:20) *
Okay so my friend is saying that they try to put the registration number in the meter but the machine just printed after pressing the first letter (hence why you see a "C" on the pay and display ticket.

Ok, makes more sense now.

QUOTE (AsusForwin1 @ Fri, 19 Nov 2021 - 18:20) *
What do you guys think? Do i have a leg to stand on or shall i just pay it?


The tariff was paid - the ticket clearly proves that. They will argue the driver didn't follow the instructions and enter the vrm correctly but the meter malfunctioned.

Personally, I wouldn't pay them a penny.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 - 18:46


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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AsusForwin1
post Tue, 23 Nov 2021 - 04:54
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BUMP! any help would still be appreciated!

Here Is what I drafted to send as a complaint to the BPA.

Hello. I would like to make a complaint against Carflow Limited for the procedure that they undertook for issuing a fine.

The registered keeper received a PCN through the post related to when the driver used ___________ parking on ____________. The driver had bought a parking "pay and display" ticket from one of the two meters that we presented at the side of the car park. The meter had malfunctioned and did not let the driver put the full registration number and issued the ticket after putting only one letter after paying the £1.40. Since this was a pay and display enforcement, the driver did not think anything of it and continued to display the ticket in the car. However, to the driver's surprise, they were also enforcing the ANPR system which would not have registered the purchase of the ticket as the machine malfunctioned and did not let the driver put the registration number in. An appeal was sent twice to Carflow Ltd, and regular emails were sent to get an update on the PCN charges, but there was no response regarding this appeal. The only response was the automated email of acknowledgement of the appeal being received. Now, the registered keeper has received a letter for "notice for pending legal action" however, it was mentioned that the PCN would be frozen until the appeal was finalised.

It is expected that if the appeal had failed, then a further appeal can be sent to POPLA but this cannot be done without the reference number for POPLA. The driver would have preferred this option to take next if the appeal was to be rejected but the POPLA number or the result of the appeal was never recieied.

Therefore, I would like to get advice on what I can do next going forward and what my rights are in this situation.

I look forward to your reply,

Kind regards,

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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 Nov 2021 - 08:38
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I'd set out the grounds for complaint first - that the operator breached part X of the bpa code of practice dated ...
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AsusForwin1
post Tue, 23 Nov 2021 - 18:34
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 23 Nov 2021 - 08:38) *
I'd set out the grounds for complaint first - that the operator breached part X of the bpa code of practice dated ...


okay how about this

Hello. I would like to make a complaint against Carflow Limited for the procedure that they undertook for issuing a fine.

Carflow Limited breached mutiple points of the BPA code of practice dated January 2020 under Section 31, including 31.6 and 31.8.

The registered keeper received a PCN through the post related to when the driver used ___________ parking on ____________. The driver had bought a parking "pay and display" ticket from one of the two meters that we presented at the side of the car park. The meter had malfunctioned and did not let the driver put the full registration number and issued the ticket after putting only one letter after paying the £1.40. Since this was a pay and display enforcement, the driver did not think anything of it and continued to display the ticket in the car. However, to the driver's surprise, they were also enforcing the ANPR system which would not have registered the purchase of the ticket as the machine malfunctioned and did not let the driver put the registration number in. An appeal was sent twice to Carflow Ltd, and regular emails were sent to get an update on the PCN charges, but there was no response regarding this appeal. The only response was the automated email of acknowledgement of the appeal being received. Now, the registered keeper has received a letter for "notice for pending legal action" however, it was mentioned that the PCN would be frozen until the appeal was finalised.

It is expected that if the appeal had failed, then a further appeal can be sent to POPLA but this cannot be done without the reference number for POPLA. The driver would have preferred this option to take next if the appeal was to be rejected but the POPLA number or the result of the appeal was never recieied.

Therefore, I would like to get advice on what I can do next going forward and what my rights are in this situation.

I look forward to your reply,

Kind regards,
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 Nov 2021 - 20:04
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That's not a formal complaint

To,whom it may concern, not "hello"
Lay out, simply,precisely what carflow didn't do.
Why do you give the full tale to the bpa? They don't care.
If you're making complaints about a breach of the cop, then be absolutely specific. They breached xxx by yyyy. And so on. For each breach, individually. Use headings even. Think about someone who doesn't give a toss about you - only their members matter to the bpa - and make it so they have a substantive complaint they have to respond to.

Don't ask "what are my rights" - you have none. Don't ask for advice. Tell the bpa what you expect to happen - that car flow are sanctioned for xyz, ordered to provide a popla code for abc, etc.
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AsusForwin1
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 02:38
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 23 Nov 2021 - 20:04) *
That's not a formal complaint

To,whom it may concern, not "hello"
Lay out, simply,precisely what carflow didn't do.
Why do you give the full tale to the bpa? They don't care.
If you're making complaints about a breach of the cop, then be absolutely specific. They breached xxx by yyyy. And so on. For each breach, individually. Use headings even. Think about someone who doesn't give a toss about you - only their members matter to the bpa - and make it so they have a substantive complaint they have to respond to.

Don't ask "what are my rights" - you have none. Don't ask for advice. Tell the bpa what you expect to happen - that car flow are sanctioned for xyz, ordered to provide a popla code for abc, etc.

Alright noted, I did not know that BPA would favour the companies over the people but I guess it makes sense.

I am not sure if the ANPR - Code 22 written in red would stand. What do you think?
These are the signs:





Here is the write up (I have also attached the pdf document for clearer visual):

To whom it may concern,
I am writing to address concerns of procedures and the breach of BPA code of practice made by a member of the BPA, Carflow Ltd. The following code of practice are the breaches made by the company when dealing with the PCN issued to the registered keeper of the vehicle in concern.

ANPR- Code 22
The first breach made by Carflow Ltd can be found under Section 22; with the use of Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) camera technology.
Section 22.1: You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.
After revisiting the car park, it was not clear what the data captured by the ANPR camera would be used for. There were no clear signs or indication that would tell the driver about the use of the data capture by this technology. Therefore, I believe issuing a PCN using this technology is a breach.


Section 17 – Keying Errors.
It is clear that the driver paid for the “pay and display” parking ticket at £1.40 (picture attached) and that there was a malfunction of the meters where the meter issued the ticket after the driver only entered the first letter of the VRM. This is obvious as the ticket has a ‘C’ label and the VRM of the car involved is CXXX XXX. The important point being that the VRM begins with ‘C’. Also, another vehicle where its VRM is ‘C’ does not exist in the UK which means that this ticket does not represent any other car. Therefore, Carflow Ltd breach the code 17.3 of the BPA practice.

17.3: No one wants to receive a parking charge for making a mistake when entering their vehicle registration number into a Pay and Display machine or parking validation terminal, when they have paid for the parking event. Motorists, car park operators, service providers and equipment manufacturers all have a responsibility in ensuring that obvious and inadvertent errors do not lead to unjustified charges.

Section 23 - Complaints, challenges, and appeals
When making the appeal to Carflow Ltd, the response to the appeal made was not received except from an automated acknowledgment email informing the recipient that Carflow Ltd has received the appeal and will be in contact. The appeal was made twice at separate times and emails were sent to Carflow Ltd asking for updates on the appeal, which shows that the recipient is still waiting for a response for any of the appeals. Due to no communication of the decision of the appeal, Carflow Ltd has breached section 23.8 of the BPA code of practice and ultimately the subsequent sections mentioned below.

Section 23:8 You must acknowledge or reply to the appeal within 14 days of receiving it. If at first you only acknowledge the appeal, or your reply does not fully resolve it, normally we would expect you to seek the additional information you require from the motorist and accept or reject the appeal in writing not more than 35 days after the information required to resolve it has been received from the motorist. It is acknowledged that in exceptional circumstances, an investigation into a appeal may take longer than 35 days after such information has been received and in these instances the motorist must be advised accordingly and given a date by which they can expect a resolution. If this date cannot be achieved then the motorist must be written to again and a revised resolution date agreed. We may require you to demonstrate that you are keeping to these times.

Section 23.1: Whenever you issue a parking charge notice motorists must first use your procedures for resolving appeals, before being able to refer them to an independent appeal service. You must tell motorists at what stage the independent appeals service becomes available.

The motorists in this situation were not informed about the independent appeals service being available.

Section 23.4: If a driver or keeper appeals a parking charge you must review the case and decide whether to: • uphold the parking charge and explain why it was issued and should therefore be paid, or • reduce or cancel the charge and take no further management action other than informing the driver.

No decision was received.

Section 23.6: When you receive a appeal about the issue of a parking charge, you must stop work on processing the charge immediately. You must not increase the charge until you have replied to the appeal.
The charge was increased without a reply to the appeal.

23.9a It must be made clear on any notices issued or on an appeal rejection letter that the motorist has to choose either to pay or to appeal (this also includes appealing to the IAS) – they can’t do both.

No appeal rejection letter was received.

23.12 If you reject an appeal you must: • tell the motorist how to make an appeal to IAS. This includes providing a template ‘notice of appeal’ form or a link to the appropriate website for lodging an appeal and a valid 10-digit verification code. Even if the verification code is automatically printed on an enclosed appeal form, it must still be in a prominent position on the first page of the rejection letter. • give the motorist a reasonable amount of time to pay the charge before restarting the collection process. We recommend that you allow at least 35 days from the date you rejected the challenge.

No appeal rejection letter was received. No POPLA or any other IAS verification code was provided.

23.12b Within all Appeal Rejection Letters, and in order to comply with the EU ADR Directive, the following wording should be used; • You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. [Insert standard operator text to appeal to IAS, including 28 day time limit for doing so, the IAS verification code and the IAS website address] • By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services. org/) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to IAS, as explained above.

No appeal rejection letter was received.

As Carflow Ltd are found to be in breach of multiple codes of practice set out by BPA in the January 2020 edit, the resolution I would be seeking would be that Carflow Ltd are sanctioned for the breaches, that they are ordered to respond to the appeal made for the PCN and provide the POPLA code to appeal if they find that the appeal is rejected.
I will be looking forward to hearing a reply from you soon.

Kind regards,





Attached File(s)
Attached File  Carflow_PCN___BPA_complaint.pdf ( 221.18K ) Number of downloads: 15
 
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 08:12
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Stop with "I believe" and similar words. Assert. This is a breach as they MUST state what they're using the data captured for. It's not issuing a pcn using the tech which is a breach, it's using the tech withiut this mandatory info.

In the pdf you must give the pictures a ref such as photo 1,2,3 etc, and refer to each picture in your complaint text. That way they can't claim to not have seen it.

Keying errors - isn't wel constructed. The issue is the machine accepted the letter c and immediately printed the ticket. There was no "keying error" here. Issuing a charge when it's your own machines that failed, or those of your principal, is not permissible.
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