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Private Parking Fine/Ticket From 'Civil Enforcement LTD', Registration Oversight With Witnesses for Entirety of Stay Covered
Papa-Not-John
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:25
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Hi, my partner parked outside a medical centre new to her (their lot enforced by Civil Enforcement Limited, ce-service.co.uk) for her work as a carer. Overwhelmed with a vulnerable patient needing constant attention, she forgot to register her vehicle in their machine. The entire time (32mins) of her visit she has witness to her whereabouts within the surgery - from the receptionist to her presence with her client's doctor and the entire time (entrance/exit/waiting-area) with her client - who requires constant attention but is cognisant to to his surroundings and can testify on her behalf. It is our feeling that although she 'forgot', her usage of the facility the parking lot is dedicated to and having witnesses thereof of her doing so as well as the short time of the infraction and the fact that 'regardless if one registers' it is a 'pay free' lot and so in our minds the plaintiffs justifying such a large financial punishment to assumedly recoup 'loss of their finances or that of the businesses they represent' to justify the value of the punishment (from £60 originally to now £100), isn't equitable? A request to Popla was turned down (rookie mistake to do so before coming here we understand) but our question - is it worth fighting further a 'non-register but with valid excuse claim' as we feel the punishment is not in keeping with the spirit of the lot's and the businesses it represents purpose, or does this forum feel to do so would be a lost cause (time vs money and potential further court losses?) based on previous decisions of the courts? Thank you for your time and any advice you could give if you've read this far👍
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post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:25
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ostell
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:56
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So you contact the practise and complain about the matter and get them to cancel the invoice. Remind them of the NHS rulings re parking at NHS facilities. They are mentioned in other threads.
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Redivi
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 13:02
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Civil Enforcement issues a lot of claims with added fake debt collection and solicitor charges but always cancels them before a hearing if the claim is defended
It's happy to scoop up all the payments from the defendants that cave in at this point rather than pursue the other 15 - 20% and let a judge examine their extraordinary business model

The extra charges mean that a victim that doesn't pay creates three times more profit than one who does

The time to write a defence is therefore far from a lost cause and the chances of extra court charges are next to zero

As an aside, it's very unlikely that Civil Enforcement even has a contract with the practice
These are usually arranged by a "clean" parent company that sub-contracts the operations
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 20:43
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QUOTE
she forgot to register her vehicle in their machine.

There is already an example defence about these non-obvious keypads, on MSE forum if you search it for Odeon iPad ParkingEye and as Redivi says, CEL are eay to see off at court claim defence stage and probably with no hearing, as they may well discontinue when you call their scamming bluff.

The Medical Centre should not even be using that regime, it is overly complicated for stressed patients and busy staff and breaches Government Policy:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...king-principles

QUOTE
Contracted-out car parking
NHS organisations are responsible for the actions of private contractors who run car parks on their behalf.

NHS organisations should act against rogue contractors in line with the relevant codes of practice, where applicable.

Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentivises additional charges, eg ‘income from parking charge notices only’.


There is no potential for further court losses/costs and it's pretty much unheard of to lose v CEL, and this case is no different! Well worth fighting but if there is no court claim yet, go for a complaint to the Medical Centre Practice Manager and insist it is cancelled. Should have been done first, along with a proper appeal that would have won first go (one email).
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Papa-Not-John
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 21:03
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Thanks very much (all🍻) for this feedback, much appreciated. Will likely have a few more questions as we move forward with your great advice, will try not to be a bother when we do and thanks very much again👍
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Papa-Not-John
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 16:11
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Hi, sorry to pester again. I have phoned the surgery (as my partner had previously) and have been informed the ticket is no longer on their system (via PCN #), they (the surgery) have advised re-engaging the parking goons (sic) who sent the ticket originally, being as 'the appeals process was initiated, it would no longer be on their system' (regardless, they kindly looked to confirm this was indeed the case). Any ideas for the next step to be taken and who in this chain to contact would be greatly appreciated? Thanks.
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Papa-Not-John
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 11:42
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Does anyone please have advice for what we should do next?? Do we just wait for them (CEL) to escalate things and react only when they do? Or are there proactive steps we can take to move this to court to defend ourselves and clear this annoyance in our lives? Thanks in advance for any council given,
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:23
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You cannot take this to court yourself
Only respond if they raise a claim

What other CEL threads have you found, so you are prepared? 2018 ones only
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Redivi
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:43
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Nothing you can do other than paying will prevent the letter chain running its course

I would ignore everything except an actual Letter Before Claim

CEL takes thousands of cases to court
It only costs them about £15 at a time to claim nearly three times the amount of the original parking notice
Motorists that don't pay until this stage are perversely the most profitable

As a rough estimate, 80% are paid when the court papers arrive
CEL cancels the claims that are defended
It's not in their interest to pursue the remainder and expose their business model to the attention of a judge

Or are there proactive steps we can take to move this to court to defend ourselves and clear this annoyance in our lives?

I've argued several times that this should be possible

I suppose it might be possible to apply for a court order that no debt exists but this would cost £255

The simplest option would be a "Put up or shut up" amendment to the Limitation Act that allows parking companies to wait six years before bringing a claim
This would enable a motorist to give a parking company 30 days notice to issue a claim
After this date the Parking Notice would become statute barred from legal action




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Fleagle
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:40
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I would be writing a letter to the Practice Manager rather than speaking to staff on the telephone, personally; talk to the organ grinder, not the monkeys wink.gif . Go in soft and only harden your approach if they won't get the 'ticket' cancelled or say they can't cancel it or say to talk to CEL. And getting things in writing is the best way to evidence what has been said, just for peace of mind if nothing else.

(Assuming that you haven't already spoken to the Practice Manager, of course smile.gif .)

And ignore CEL until a Letter Before Claim arrives (if one ever does), as others have advised.
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Papa-Not-John
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 18:13
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Thanks very much for these responses,

We spoke to the practice manager today and they are happy to furnish us with a letter confirming the original appointment, including the patient's (under my partners care) witnessing of this (after authorisation to do so was achieved on the phone, hassling/stressing yet another human component mid this process) with the Dr. attending on the day, also signing to confirm as witness for the entire length of the visit. This letter we are told will be forwarded to us. Irksome to learn today that my partner originally went to the practice (as this site and many commenters have logically advised, thank you again) in hopes to have the ticket rescinded months ago and was fobbed off by a member of the reception staff, who provided 'an appointment card showing an official stamp with time and date' of the appointment (which we have retained) and a 'sorry, there's nothing more we can do, good luck fighting it', which we now know is plainly false (a bald lie). If the staff of this facility's left hand knew what its right hand (management) was doing or authorised to do, this tedious saga's bud could have been nipped at the beginning. It beggars belief that an NHS facility actively professing to care about mental health, colludes with companies who actively decay it as the structure of their 'business model' and even worse so, don't have their staff abreast of the most basic of procedures when something as regularly occurring and pedestrian as this transpires. Also disconcerting to have surgery staff on the phone, I spoke to yesterday, denying the car park was theirs or anything to do with them (I have this recorded) only to go in today to see their proud partnership with it festooned all over their walls, specifically utilising the pronoun 'our' in reference to it (which I now have photos of). The NHS should be ashamed of any involvement in this process, let alone its full cooperation. Very, very frustrated at the seemingly unnecessary protraction of tedium this minute oversight has caused and thank all responders very much for your help in dealing with it.

We will await our witness letter from the surgery and the escalation (should it come) from CEL as advised.

Thanks very much again.
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Papa-Not-John
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 23:23
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Hi and Merry Ho Ho, we have received the next letter of escalation.

This one threatens that 'if payment is not received in full within 14 days' they will 'instruct third party collection agents and costs will escalate'.. it then states 'they will instruct their legal dept to commence proceedings'.. I am not relaying multiple obvious grammar errors for fear they may be purposeful to ferret our identity (highly unlikely but who knows).. they say 'they will be seeking full cost and legal fees'.. then state that 'If a judgment is thereafter obtained' (so it seems they like to state what they'll do 'after a judgement', chronologically on their documents before they actually receive one).. they then say 'what may be available to them' is - 1. 'Appoint Court Bailiffs' (for £100 + £40 costs totalling £140 at this point, they are funny) 2. 'Seize vehicle/goods' 3. 'Apply for an attachment of earnings' and/or(??) 4. A 'Third Party Debt Order'.. the last two options expanded-upon in 'information below'.. it then again outlines that 'Payments can be made by phone or their website'.. and finishes by threatening that 'if the matter remains unresolved, costs will simply escalate' and what looks to be a scribbled (poorly) in pen, signature...

Any advice as to what, if anything, we should do next would be greatly appreciated?

Thanks very much and best wishes for the season,
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Redivi
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 23:54
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If you have the letter from the surgery, send a copy (keep hold of the original)

Otherwise ignore the letter because there is nothing you can do that will prevent the letter chain following its course

It's a disgrace that private parking notices fall outside any of the regulations for debt collection except the Protection from Harassment Act 1999
This is, however, a very high hurdle to prove an offence

This post has been edited by Redivi: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 23:55
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Papa-Not-John
post Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 18:56
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We are now here (please see photos attached) as of a couple days ago, can anyone advise sensible next steps? Thanks very much.

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This post has been edited by Papa-Not-John: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 18:58
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Redivi
post Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 19:36
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That's not a very useful picture

Have you received a claim form ?

If so, follow the instructions to acknowledge service:

You do not dispute jurisdiction (of the County Court). Northampton is just its Post Office
You dispute the entire debt
No counter-claim
Do not put anything at all in the defence box, not even a full stop

That will give you an extra 14 days to write the defence
Look in the Forum for suitable examples - nothing older than 2018
They never need more than a couple of sentences changing to fit the individual situation
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Papa-Not-John
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 17:57
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Yes, thank you for your response, a claim form (as partially shown) was sent.
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Papa-Not-John
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:37
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Which of these "options" shown are you suggesting might be "instructions to acknowledge services" please? Thanks.

This post has been edited by Papa-Not-John: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 19:36
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Redivi
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:52
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You've left the PCN reference and registration number on that picture
Parking companies follow this forum and will use any information they find

Follow the instructions to acknowledge service
This will give you an extra 14 days to prepare and send the defence

You do not contest jurisdiction unless you live outside England/Wales. Northampton is just a Post Office
You dispute the entire debt
Do not put anything at all in the Defence Box

Then search the Forum for suitable CEL defences
Don't use anything later than 2018

I can see one flaw immediately in their claim
It's signed by CEL but includes a fake £50 Legal representative fee

How is the rest of the amount made up because it used to be PCN £100 + £40 fake own costs + £60 fake debt collector charge + £36 fake solicitor charge ?
Defences attack these so that CEL won't turn to hearings and explain their additions to a judge
What the driver actually did doesn't usually require changing more than a couple of sentences

This post has been edited by Redivi: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:54
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Papa-Not-John
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 19:42
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Great, thank you.
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