TfL & EPC 80 PCNs - Course of Action? Options

[fantome]

Hi all,

Let me introduce myself first. Yes, I am one of the recently fallen French soldiers. In total, I have received about 80 PCNs issued by EPC to my parents' address in France (where I haven't lived since 2017). These PCNs are for the Congestion Charge and the ULEZ Charge.

Let me start by saying they're valid, in a sense. I was not aware that my Blue Badge Exemption to the Congestion Charge had expired 3 months ago, at which point I became liable to pay the Congestion Charge again. I drove without my exemption for 3 months because, well, I never received any PCN myself as notice that they were building up. As for the ULEZ PCNs, again, valid. My vehicle does not meet the Diesel Euro 6 standard, but I was under the impression, for a year and a half, that my Blue Badge exemption also applied to the ULEZ charge. Since, again, I never received a PCN or any notice about them building up until last week.

Fear not as I am not about to desperately cry out "SHOULD I PAY???", I know EPC has no jurisdiction in France. I know these PCNs are not enforceable in France, and I know they are civil debts, of which customs and police authorities in the UK have no knowledge. Payment is not an option in any event, I'm not a billionaire.

My only question is how to proceed from now on. About 60 French citizens have started a collective legal action with a UK solicitor and are waiting to hear back for their preliminary advice. Others have contacted the Data Protection French Body to enquire about EPC's access to our personal info, and they too are waiting for the result of a pending investigation. Still, with deadlines for payment, I have to know what to do now, as in by the end of the week, do I challenge the PCNs or do I go on with my life as if I'd never been served with any of them?

For context, I live in London. I have a residency status in the UK. I drive the relevant vehicle (French plate) in London. I go through UK customs at least 6 times a year, half of them with that same vehicle. I work in London. I have no intention ever of moving out of the UK. So my only question is, is anyone going to know about this, ever ?

I have searched the PCNs on TfL's website and they're all here, all payable, all can be challenged with a First Rep to begin with. And I'm a lawyer in the UK (although by no means in this area of law where I'm clueless), so I'm not really bothered by the idea of fighting my corner. I'm just looking for the optimal way to get out of this situation with the least amount of efforts, and the certainty that it won't come back to bite me in the future.

Since I was planning to buy an EV in the UK in early 2023 anyways, I admit I have thought of speeding that purchase up and simply leaving my French car in France sooner than anticipated. If I were to go down that route, I'd prefer not to give the least bit of info about me to TfL or EPC (my Blue Badge Exemption with TfL was in my partner's name, who is not a registered keeper of the car or named on any PCNs). So in that scenario, it'd make sense to not even make Rep to the PCNs and simply act as if they were never received, because in any event, I don't even live in France where they were served. I'm just unsure how likely it is that TfL could locate me later down the line, even with a new and UK-registered vehicle, and involve enforcement authorities at that point. If that's a plausible scenario, I may prefer challenging the PCNs and fighting my corner as of now.

I do not need any advice on how to fight the PCNs themselves, I have a 12-page Rep ready to send and it's as tight as it gets. But I was in the wrong, and if I can avoid that battle, I'd do it with no shame.

I would greatly appreciate any opinion on whether I should ignore and switch cars as I'd planned to anyways, or whether I should challenge the PCNs and dive in that rabbit hole to face my crap now rather than risk it becoming a problem later.

Last note, I've taken a good look at this forum that I did not know about, and I have to say I'm impressed. More than the knowledge you all so casually share, with unbelievable expertise on the matter, it's the determination and solidarity I admire. My most sincere French applause, gentlemen and women.

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[stamfordman]

You've been rather careless, to say the least.

As far as we know there is no mechanism by which TFL can target you in the UK as it has no UK court order and obviously not in France either.

If you make reps you can try asking for a plea bargain - pay some and ask for bulk to be written off, and register the car now and pay the charges from now on - are you in the CC zone or outside it but in ULEZ zone?

Having a BB holder involved will make this much more likely to succeed. For ULEZ though you only get exemption if the car is registered as disabled class.

Another point is that I think you can only use a foreign registered car in the UK for 6 months...

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 14:58

[hcandersen]

As far as I know, if you are resident in the UK then you must register your car with DVLA after no more than 6 months.

In total, I have received about 80 PCNs issued by EPC to my parents' address in France (where I haven't lived since 2017).

..but your parents live there..so why didn't they forward mail/give you a heads-up on your penalties?

Would you be coming to any court action against EPC with 'clean hands'?

[stamfordman]

As far as I know, if you are resident in the UK then you must register your car with DVLA after no more than 6 months.

In total, I have received about 80 PCNs issued by EPC to my parents' address in France (where I haven't lived since 2017).

..but your parents live there..so why didn't they forward mail/give you a heads-up on your penalties?

Would you be coming to any court action against EPC with 'clean hands'?

Yes I noted the 6 months too.

But we know that EPC has just unleashed a huge batch of PCNs on foreign registered vehicles so these probably all came more or less at once.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 15:09

[fantome]

You've been rather careless, to say the least.

For sure, but another point is I only drive when my disabled partner absolutely needs me to, which is by no means an easy ride for fun here and there, and the Regs are quite confusing to foreigners. I was most definitely careless about the expiry of the BB exemption to the Congestion Charge.
On ULEZ exemptions however, I genuinely believed that we were exempted, and not because I did not look it up. TfL's website states that an exempted vehicle is one registered in that tax class, which is our case in France. If it is registered outside of the UK, then TfL instructs relevant drivers to register with them to benefit from that exemption in the UK. I assumed that I had done exactly that by purchasing a Disabled Permit with our Council and registering the vehicle as used for a disabled passenger with TfL re: Congestion Charge. I understand I was mistaken, but I only realised this upon receipt of the PCNs. Again, none of this is easily accessible and readily understandable to foreigners. I absolutely should have done better, I know the responsibility is on me, but I also should have been warned in due time that this isssue was occuring instead of having PCNs building up for months, when TfL had our car registration on record all along since we were exempted from the Congestion Charge.


About the PCNs' receipt, we indeed were part of the huge (and first of its kind) batch of PCNs issued to French citizens by EPC around mid-November. Like my fellow citizens, I never received any notice or warning before that first batch was sent by EPC very recently. No one in France had been sent anything in my name regarding this. Since their recent receipt, I have indeed made sure to pay the relevant charges on each occasion.

As to the 6 months rule, I won't give away anything that I fear may amount to recognisable personal info, but rest assured the car is legitimately and legally in the UK with no need yet to register it with the DVLA. That is not the norm for most I am aware, but there is no issue here. In fact, one of the reasons why I was planning on switching to an EV was also to have a UK registered car directly, as my current arrangements and contracts will laspe in just under another year.

I was asked if I'd find myself facing EPC in Court with "clean hands". No, I've made mistakes, I am aware. I am also not seeking an equitable remedy so I don't really have to stand in Court with perfectly clean hands. And I can't imagine EPC ever having the power to take me to Court in any case, I'd be facing TfL most likely.

Still, I do have a tight Rep on Ground 3 & Mitigation Grouds (although my subs on Ground 3 are the most persuasive in my opinion), that I am prepared to send. And as kindly suggested, I have indeed considered offering TfL part payment to extinguish the full debt. But 80 PCNs, that's a lot of money. I cannot imagine them accepting my offer to pay 15 and have the rest written off. Am I mistaken?
I also fear that such an offer would make myself too vulnerable in showing all my cards. TfL would then have all of my details, knowledge of my current residency in the UK etc. I'd be at their mercy without a safety net if they refuse my offer.
Similarly, if I challenge the PCNs with a Rep, even without making any offer, I'll bring my residency and contact details to their knowledge.
My most fundamental hesitation is hence on this point; would it be an incredibly silly move for me to reveal myself and contact them, knowing they're very likely to reject whatever argument/offer I'll make? Or would it be even worse to ignore the PCNs and to hope that switching vehicles will fix the problem?

A small update: the UK firm instructed for the collective legal action has apparently withdrawn from the case as being "too complicated" (I assume due to cross-jurisdiction issues post-Brexit), so that is no longer something ongoing which could have provided some answers/advice.

This post has been edited by fantome: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 - 16:52

[cp8759]

I do not need any advice on how to fight the PCNs themselves, I have a 12-page Rep ready to send and it's as tight as it gets. But I was in the wrong, and if I can avoid that battle, I'd do it with no shame.

With respect, I'd like to see this 12-page rep. To be perfectly honest a solid rep only needs to be a couple of paragraphs so I suspect what you've done is OTT and might well include some (o possibly many) irrelevant matters. You will have seen my comments on other thread and the key issue if the PCNs are months old will be Paul Richard Davis v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) and R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p. Doody [1993] UKHL 8.

The one thing you must not do under any circumstances whatsoever is to give your UK address to either EPC or TFL, or suddenly you'll find the debts are very enforceable indeed.

I am pm'ing you about a separate matter which you might have overlooked.

A small update: the UK firm instructed for the collective legal action has apparently withdrawn from the case as being "too complicated" (I assume due to cross-jurisdiction issues post-Brexit), so that is no longer something ongoing which could have provided some answers/advice.

To be honest this area of law is really easy, EPC are really useless, and unless they've radically changed their ways a tribunal appeal against an EPC-issued Notice of Rejection is the easiest case you'll ever see. It's just that the UK law firm wouldn't have a clue.

By all means feel free to direct the former clients of the UK law firm this way, you'll find out prices are more reasonable.