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PCN help
tim123457
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 17:37
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Hey guys,

I was recently given a PCN (attached)

Long story short, the car park was sheltered and I could not get signal to pay for parking at the machine using paybyphone/online system.

I left the car park and managed to pay 15 minutes later for 24 hours (receipt attached)

I thought this would just be a case of sending this information to them, but surprisingly they have refused cancellation.

Their reply, also attached, seems to refer to not displaying a ticket, but if you pay online you cannot display a ticket.

The annoying this is, I now have to wait 28 days to potentially argue the matter with someone else, and risk the fine going up.
I'm half tempted to ask my bank to refund the parking, then I will just pay the PCN.

https://ibb.co/SsNqrLy
https://ibb.co/PTjS7sX
https://ibb.co/f1fnQx4

This post has been edited by tim123457: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 09:57
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post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 17:37
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DastardlyDick
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 18:57
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If you could post up the PCN with Reg. No. and PCN No. obscured/redacted, but Location and c
Contravention Code etc. left visible please, we can have a look and advise.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 18:59
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If you have to leave the car park to pay this will be a strong appeal point.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com (create an account there) and post BBcode embed links (see below pic).


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tim123457
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 09:56
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https://ibb.co/SsNqrLy
https://ibb.co/PTjS7sX
https://ibb.co/f1fnQx4
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stamfordman
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 10:02
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Gap between PCN and paying is a bit long really - how do you account for 15 mins







This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 10:04
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tim123457
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 13:40
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Thanks for the reply.
I sent them the reasons but do not have a copy of them.
Basically I parked in one car park but the machine did not work, so I went to this one.
I couldn't get signal as it was covered and between buildings, so I messaged my girlfriend the details who paid online for 24 hours.
I realise there is a biggish time gap but that's just how long it took to sort out the payment.


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stamfordman
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 13:45
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QUOTE (tim123457 @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 13:40) *
Basically I parked in one car park but the machine did not work, so I went to this one.
I couldn't get signal as it was covered and between buildings, so I messaged my girlfriend the details who paid online for 24 hours.
I realise there is a biggish time gap but that's just how long it took to sort out the payment.



You mean you moved the car between car parks?

If you can get the narrative straight I would go on with this as it seems you made reasonable attempt to pay using the only avenue available.
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tim123457
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 13:55
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Thanks stamfordman (again lol)

Yes I moved between car parks.
I think I made more than a reasonable effort to pay and was pretty sure that's how it would be viewed at their, but it seems they ignored what I said as the letter seems to refer to not displaying a ticket. If you pay online, you do not display ticket anyway.
I think I'll fight this one, but it is difficult because I have to wait 2 weeks between each correspondence.
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cp8759
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 14:05
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You might have a strong case but you'll need supporting evidence. Take a screenshot from the opensignal app to evidence what the coverage is like in the car park in question for your mobile network.. Also make sure you keep the text you sent to your girlfriend.

Where were you while the CEO was issuing the PCN?


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stamfordman
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 14:14
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So no machine in the second car park?
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tim123457
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 14:16
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The place I was going to was 2 minutes away. I had low battery and needed the sat nav to find it. Once I was in there I charged my phone on my laptop (which is slow) and as soon as I could I messaged my gf. I will check the coverage and also find the message sent.
-I checked the coverage for bloom street car park Manchester. 4G seems to be ok (which I do not use) but 3G only has coverage for 3 and EE and I am on O2.
Pretty sure I am reading it correctly.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 14:14) *
So no machine in the second car park?


Yes there was a machine, but it was the same as the other. It used a paybyphone service which you could either call or use the internet to access, but i could not do either.
You also need to sign up, so i guess that's why it took 15mins+ to sort out.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 14:21
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you said the machine did not work in the first one, which implies you tried to pay with coins or card?

Machines usually mean coin or card - plus pay by phone details stuck on the side.



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tim123457
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 14:35
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 14:21) *
you said the machine did not work in the first one, which implies you tried to pay with coins or card?

Machines usually mean coin or card - plus pay by phone details stuck on the side.


The first car park I went to had an NCP guy stood there saying the card function on the machine does not work. You will need to call. I tried to call but it was engaged.
He said you can try that car park next door. So to save time I moved my car to the carpark next door, which wasn't an NCP, but owned by the council.

They had a similar machine and the only option (it appeared) to pay was the paybyphone service. It says To pay visit: paybyphone.co.uk or call .....
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cp8759
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 16:58
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Right so it seems the first car park is actually irrelevant here. So, once you parked in the 2nd car park, why did it take so long to pay (remember the events of the 1st car park are irrelevant)?


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tim123457
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 18:07
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Ok so the full story..

I could not get signal in the car park to call or download the app/access the website to pay for the parking.

I had stood around trying to do this for 5-10mins so headed to my destination about 2 minutes away figuring I might get signal or they have wifi. (I got signal as I walked away from the car park but was using sat nav and had low battery)

My battery died just as I arrived, so I charged it on my laptop. Laptops don't charge much, so as soon as went to use it to pay it died again.

I couldn't wait for sufficient charge so I sent details to my girlfriend to pay as soon as the phone came back on again.
She was at a laptop and paid straight away.

It does sound like a stupid excuse, but I paid for the parking as intended and did the next day too.
I guess I've missed my opportunity for discretion as they rejected my first appeal.

This post has been edited by tim123457: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 18:11
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Mr Meldrew
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:32
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QUOTE (tim123457 @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 18:07) *
I guess I've missed my opportunity for discretion as they rejected my first appeal.

No, but it might be as you said earlier that they have ignored what you said at the discount stage by way of mitigation, which might not be fair. 15 minutes to sort out payment is a rather long time and I doubt therefore that you would dispute that “your parking ticket was issued correctly”, but I’d bet you would want to dispute that your representations were correctly rejected for that reason, which you will see is the reason given twice in the rejection letter having noted the “comments” made in your representation. Your material point that the Council car park was sheltered and you could not get a signal on your phone network to pay for parking was much more than comments, and If the appropriate response to those representations were what looks like a ‘standard’ rejection letter in pay and display cases without reference to the individual merits and why they were rejected, then you would want to argue that it is pointless there being a mandatory requirment to consider the representations in the first place.

Perhaps you are left wondering if the Council have evidence that a motorist can always complete the payment transaction on any network inside 15 minutes including signing up and searching for a phone signal, or perhaps they consider you should have had reason to expect, before you parked, that the only method of payment would be challenging on the day and should have had pen and paper with you in order to write a note for the CEO. However, rather than address the particular circumstances, the Council provided you with a rejection that it looks as if discretion was not considered because your parking ticket was issued correctly. The Council have discretion to waive a penalty charge at any stage in the process, but in particular are obliged to consider exercising discretion with reference to the representations made at the informal stage of the appeal process when the discount option is still available to you, and you did presumably explain the challenges you had faced. However, the Council do not appear to have appreciated what you said, or if they did, they did not explain why they were unwilling to exercise their discretion in your favour. The approach should have been that having identified that a contravention had occurred, they should then have considered your explanation for it and decided, with an explanation to you, why the penalty charge should nevertheless be paid. The correct response to such a potential further challenge (appeal) in my opinion, would be to exercise discretion and cancel the penalty charge, or address your representations with an understandable (even if brief) explanation why not, and in the circumstances re-offer the discount.


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I do tend to have a bee in my bonnet re failing to consider and fairness
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stamfordman
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:40
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I think I would go on with this as extra penalty is 'only' £25. You would not of course divulge your phone ran out of juice but that you only succeeded in completing the booking with access to a computer and within 15 mins, including time to set up and time wasted trying to pay and find signal.
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cp8759
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 11:57
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Download the opensignal app and get a screenshot of the coverage for your network in that car park. If you can evidence your mobile network has little to no coverage within the car park, you have a much stronger case.


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tim123457
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 22:24
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Hey guys,

Good news - the PCN was cancelled.

I replied to the original email explaining again and pointing out that their reply seemed to be directed towards displaying a ticket in the window. I also asked for someone else to take a look.

I didn't expect a reply but received one a week or so later saying it has been cancelled but may not be next time!

Thanks for all of the advice.
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ford poplar
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 02:20
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You were were lucky in this case, Council exerized discretion.
THE premis is the driver has about 10 min to pay for parking, RINGO is offered as an altermative payment method within that time, though it may require prior Registration, or subject to recent O2 loss of Service.
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