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Suspended Bay - Kingston Council
numb15
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 15:48
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Hi,
Drove along New Malden high street (Kingston Council) where there are some works going on in the southbound carriage way.
I parked, got my ticket for 30 minutes from the machine, popped in to the post office, came back out 5 minutes later and I had a PCN contravention code 21.
There were around 10 parking bays which were suspended from the south end of the high street to the Bon Marche store, I was parked right at the end of the suspension in front of the Bon Marche.

I am wondering whether it's worth challenging. I have my concerns and questions for you, I'd be grateful for your input:

1. The council did not appear to take photos, I checked on their online portal (PCN was given today so maybe they haven't uploaded them yet? All I get is the chance to put in my payment details and that's it). It seems ad hoc when they do/don't take photos, is it completely discretionary?

2. The PCN does not provide an email for representation (should they?)

3. The location on the PCN is rather vague, it just says "high street". Shouldn't the location be a little more precise? Given they have taken no photos how can they prove exactly where along the high street?

4. The back of the PCN seems to be missing a piece on what happens if the council receive representations no later than the last day of the discount period. Is this mandatory to include? For example, I have seen PCNs from other councils on this forum which include the following wording: "If we receive representations against the penalty charge not later than the las day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the Notice is served, but reject the challenge, we will allow a further 14 days from the date on which the rejection letter is issued in which to pay the reduced penalty charge."

5. I had a 30 minute parking ticket on the dashboard and that was still valid when the PCN was given. There was no 10 minute observation period by the parking warden before writing the PCN. Should there have been? Or is the 10 minute observation only applied after the expiry time of a ticket?

6. I went up to the nearest machine which had the sign at the other end of the suspension to where I parked. There was no TTRO attached to it. Should there have been? I can't find the TTRO online. FYI the machine I used was on the opposite side of the high street which had no sign as there weren't any suspensed bays on that side).

7. Although the sign says "parking suspension", it is followed by a clear "no loading". Shouldn't there be a "no parking" too?

8. Since there was a temporary suspension, shouldn't they have switched off the parking machine next to those bays? Otherwise it's misleading, gives the impression you can continue paying for parking.
I was annoyed as nobody else along the strip had a PCN when I came out (but some of the parked cars did have people in them), and I saw people kept using the machine. The warden was no longer around.

Photos below of the front/back of the PCN and the sign.

https://ibb.co/4dSQD5f
https://ibb.co/D4Bz0dP
https://ibb.co/cLfcHSJ

This post has been edited by numb15: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 16:04
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post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 15:48
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stamfordman
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 16:06
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So you parked by this sign which had no suspension, but crossed the road to buy a ticket? What machine and why didn't you use the one on your side?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996713,-0....3312!8i6656

This makes no sense:

6. I went up to the nearest machine which had the sign at the other end of the suspension to where I parked. There was no TTRO attached to it. Should there have been? I can't find the TTRO online. FYI the machine I used was on the opposite side of the high street which had no sign as there weren't any suspensed bays on that side).

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 16:11
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numb15
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 16:17
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 16:06) *
So you parked by this sign which had no suspension, but crossed the road to buy a ticket? What machine and why didn't you use the one on your side?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996713,-0....3312!8i6656

This makes no sense:

6. I went up to the nearest machine which had the sign at the other end of the suspension to where I parked. There was no TTRO attached to it. Should there have been? I can't find the TTRO online. FYI the machine I used was on the opposite side of the high street which had no sign as there weren't any suspensed bays on that side).


That's right, that sign next to where I parked had no suspension sign. The one which did have suspension sign was the one right in front of the post office (in that google maps link you shared swivel a bit to the right and you'll see it just after the Greggs). But that suspension sign did say parking suspension was applicable from the top of the high street (i.e. from the Pizza Hut just after the post office) to the Bon Marche where I was parked right after the taxi bay. The machine I used was opposite the street in front of the 'Savers' store, I needed to pass in there for a minute before going to the post office. So I went in to the store, made the purchase, got the ticket on the way out, crossed back to the car, put ticket in dashboard, went in to post office, came back from post office and found the PCN.

This post has been edited by numb15: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 16:26
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stamfordman
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 17:00
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Given that the bays suspended were by the sign where you parked I think you have a good case. They have failed in a duty to clearly sign the suspension.

Note that no observation is needed for a suspended bay.

Wait for the council pics and post those.




This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 17:01
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numb15
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 20:19
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Hello, so that parking sign in the google street maps outside Bon Marche, I had a niggle that I didn't recognise it. Went back to the high street tonight and saw it's been replaced with a taxi bay sign. No suspension notice on this, does that matter?
What about my points on the missing wording on the back of the PCN and the rather vague "high street" location (which high street? loads of 'high street's across Kingston), is there much mileage in that?
I'll keep an eye out on the council photos but if they're not there by now I'm not sure the CEO actually took any...
Anyway, two more photos here, hope these help:
https://ibb.co/7Y8FqT2
https://ibb.co/pXV7BMB

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stamfordman
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 20:48
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Well the change of sign takes away a strong appeal point. You do have a duty to seek out the signage for your bay and if you'd have gone to the machine by the PO you would have seen the notice.

But no works going on it seems. I don't think High Street has any legs given you know exactly where this is. I'll leave PCN wording to others.
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cp8759
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 20:59
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We need to see the council photos.


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numb15
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 22:18
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thanks CP, but there are no council photos on their portal, only the option to pay directly.
The PCN does state "The CEO may have taken photographs of the alleged contravention...this PCN remains valid even if no photographs have been taken".

On another recent post of a user who also parked in a suspended bay in Croydon, I notice PastMyBest replied "they cannot suspend parking in that way they need to make a tempory order under s14 of RTA 1984 and post a notice to that effect was there such a notice in place.".
So does that mean a notice of a TTRO is supposed to be attached on or near to the yellow suspension sign on street? Or does that kind of notice only need to be attached to certain types of suspensions?

This post has been edited by numb15: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 22:19
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numb15
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 11:28
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So there are no Council photos.
One other point: the council's own website says "Before we suspend parking bays, we put up warning signs. Later, when the suspension comes into force, we put up yellow signs saying 'Warning. Parking suspended. No waiting, loading, unloading".

Their sign, on this occasion, only stated "no loading".
I was actually unloading. Might be pedantic, but do I have an appeal point on this basis since they haven't followed their own guidance?
I also think it's cheeky they kept the parking meter active, it was sending conflicting signals that parking was still possible. Usual practice is for councils to cover it up or switch it off during a suspension.

This post has been edited by numb15: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 11:31
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stamfordman
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 11:34
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They could still have put a suspension sign on that pole by the bay.
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cp8759
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:22
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QUOTE (numb15 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 11:28) *
So there are no Council photos.

I would contact the council and ask for the photos then. At the moment I can't even work out if we're looking at a parking suspension or a TTRO, which you have mentioned in your labelling of the photo you've taken. It might be that there was both a TTRO and a suspension in force if the works overlapped bays and SYLs, but without knowing exactly what evidence the council has it's impossible to work out what we are dealing with.


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numb15
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:45
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:22) *
QUOTE (numb15 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 11:28) *
So there are no Council photos.

It might be that there was both a TTRO and a suspension in force if the works overlapped bays and SYLs, but without knowing exactly what evidence the council has it's impossible to work out what we are dealing with.


Ok thanks I will do. There were works going on, you can just see the edge of them in the last photo of the scene I posted. The works were not going on in the bays themselves, I suspect the bays were only suspended for the purposes of some of the contractors' vans who were doing the works. It's a water fountain which is being installed. There were no works going on when I got there which is another reason the suspension didn't seem obvious at first glance.
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numb15
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 18:09
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Hello!
I got a reply from Kingston rejecting my appeal. Doesn’t seem like a TTRO was in place, only a suspension.
Rejection letter and their photos below.
A reminder there were three parking signs the length of the suspended bays. I parked at the end of the suspension in front of the Bon Marche store where the closest sign had no suspension notice. Since I had sent in my protest note, I passed by the area on Remembrance Sunday where all the same bays were suspended again for the commemorations. Surprise, surprise, the sign next to the Bon Marche did have a suspension sign, as well as the other two. I took photos.
So the council has demonstrated inconsistency here: why not put a suspension notice on the sign next to where I parked the day I parked there, but then put one up the next time they get suspended?
Not sure how much of a defense this would be and if it’s worth waiting for the Notice yo Owner to appeal?
Thank you

https://ibb.co/tZnXksy
https://ibb.co/HGyc34Q
https://ibb.co/wdbK9vB
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 19:54
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So let's try and get our facts straight. You were parked here where the red car is: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996713,-0....3312!8i6656

Was there a suspension sign attached to this pole, yes or no? https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996713,-0....3312!8i6656


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numb15
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 20:14
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Hi CP, yes I was parked where the red car is. No there was no sign attached to that pole when I parked there on October 29th, but there was last Sunday! Same bays were suspended both days.
When I was there the only suspension sign was to the right of that red car in front of the post office.

This post has been edited by numb15: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 20:16
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 20:52
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If there was a sign right next to your car that said you could park, you were entitled to rely on it. On that basis, the signage was inadequate under regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 and personally I would carry on and wait for the NtO.


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hcandersen
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 22:22
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OP, assuming your reps made the point that there wasn't a sign on the post by your car...then

Dear ***

Thank you for your letter dated *** rejecting my representations dated ****.

I am reassured that you 'reviewed the images and notes taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer..' and that the regulations require the suspension sign to be clearly visible which in this instance was 'erected ..on the nearest parking plate to the area to be suspended'.

I thank you for including a photo of the sign upon which you made your decision and which was submitted by the CEO, presumably to support their contention that it was situated nearest to the area to be suspended.

You might care to look again at your evidence and GSV where you might be surprised to see that although my car was parked next to a parking plate, this is not the one in the CEO's evidence - you can clearly see the Post Office sign in the background and uniquely shaped window within this area which prove that the suspension sign upon which you rely was some distance from where I parked and not the closest, contrary to you assertion. The CEO submitted a photo of an irrelevant sign for reasons known only to them. I reassert that there was no suspension sign on the post nearest my car and that therefore the regular restriction, with which I complied, applied.

We could continue with this to a NTO, reps, prospective NOR and appeal, but I would surmise that neither the CEO nor the authority in general or the reviewing officers in particular would relish the outcome.

At this stage I am prepared to put your collective failures down to an error, however I should not be as amenable if you continued to pursue this matter.

I hope this matter can be resolved quickly by you confirming that the PCN has been cancelled.

Hugs
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cp8759
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 10:02
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Don't disagree, but if you write back now replace GSV with Google Street View. The council won't have any idea what GSV means.


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numb15
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 21:06
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Thanks for the template, will do!
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numb15
post Fri, 6 Mar 2020 - 15:51
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Hello,
I have the tribunal appeal hearing tomorrow morning in person.
Question on this: On the appointment confirmation from London Tribunals, they stated that "you should receive a copy of the Enforcement Authority's evidence directly from them at least three days before the date set for the hearing".

I only got the response from Kingston Council yesterday afternoon in the post, which is less than 48 hours from the hearing. Does that count for anything?
Kingston sent me the following Case Summary, plus a single-sided print out of the Traffic Management Order (around 100 pages, single-sided(!), no wonder Councils are low on money!). I don't have time to read through the whole traffic management order before tomorrow morning, I'll skim through it.

Page 1 of their response: https://ibb.co/BZcgG2q
Page 2 of their response: https://ibb.co/9g1Kk4k
Page 3 of their response: https://ibb.co/Yf1nk6X

I'm going to emphasise the lack of signage at the start and end of the suspension bays. One sign in the middle is a bit inadequate.
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