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PCN Church Street Westiminster for alleged SYL contravention 1 minute late Saturday street market
hustler6969
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 23:16
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Hello ladies and gents, would really appreciate if yourselves could provide your opinion on a PCN that has now confused me as well follwoing informal appeal stage.

Basically in summary, I had parked in a parking bay which has paid parking restrictions Mon-Fri 08:30 - 06:30. A big portion of it is also SYL lines my understanding of it is that the SYL didn't apply where there were parking bays). However, there is also a street market (now I know) on Saturday, which prohibits vehicles on that road on Saturday 10am - 4pm.

I recieved a PCN for parking there at 10:00 am exactly on a Saturday morning. I had parked for about 10 mins or so (admittedly I hadnt noticed the 10am - 4pm restriction, but had returned to my car anyway about 10:05 to find a PCN on my windscreen under code 01: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

I informally challenged the PCN online with the following:

"I was issued a PCN for allegedly being on a street where no vehicles are permitted between 10:00 and 16:00 on a Saturday. I had parked up lawfully into a dedicated parking bay at 09.45 to visit the local shops on the street, aiming to get back to my car in around 13-15 minutes. I wish to challenge PCN WE01806280 on the following grounds:
1) The ticket was not issued in accordance with the London CEO's handbook which states:
"b) Time restrictions/paid parking
Where a time restriction applies, CEOs should not issue a PCN less than two minutes before a restriction starts or less than two minutes after the restriction has expired. For example, if a restriction starts (or paid-for time expires) at 8.00am then a PCN should only be issued if the vehicle is in contravention after 8.02am. Similarly, if a restriction ends at 6.00pm the no PCNs should be issued after 5.58pm."
The ticket was issued at 10:00 (windscreen photo shows that the ticket in placed already by 10:01:31) but the CEO handbook states that the CEO should not have issued the PCN before 10:02.
2) The ticket is invalid under the parking related elements of the Deregulation Act that came into force in April 2015 (10 minute mandatory grace period in parking bays):
I was lawfully parked within a designated parking bay until 10:00am.
Parking related elements of the Deregulation Act that came into force in April 2015 stipulate a ‘10 minute mandatory grace period in parking bays’. This means that a PCN may not be served until the end of 10 minutes after the end of my permitted parking/presence period i.e. 10:10am.
The 2015 amendment to Regulation 4 of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, applies.
Here is further evidence from your own website regrading this: https://www.westminster.gov.uk/deregulation...ing-enforcement
3) Inadequate/Conflicting Signage; & misleading evidence by CEO
The collective signage in question on that road (which has been used in the CEOs pictures to prove this alleged contravention) is inadequate, flawed and conflicting.
The ‘No vehicles on Saturday 10:00am – 4pm’ sign is at an indiscernible angle to most motorists turning a sharp left into that road chasing a closing traffic light.
What the CEO also fails to capture in his pictures is the clear signage right next to the dedicated parking bay I’d parked in (almost directly above my bonnet and in response to the misleading picture of single yellow restrictions provided by the CEO) which clearly mentions that parking restrictions in the designated bays only apply Monday to Friday (see picture attached).

In light of that and all the other arguments presented above, I require you to cancel the PCN forthwith and with immediate effect. Should you not do so, I require the following items: CEO's notes, Photographs, traffic enforcement camera footage, Traffic Management Order and details of the CEO's timepiece synchronisation, and a full log of PCNs issued by this CEO for the day.
"

My main understanding was that since the restriction started at 10am I shouldn't have been issued a PCN till 10:02, and they had issued and left it on the windscreen by 10.01.31 according to the CEO's provided pic!! My understanding still at the point of appealing was that where I had parked (before the 10am restriction had started) was a dedicated parking bay and not a single yellow line - otherwise how can SYL and paid parking on weekdays for example be in force at the same time!

They rejected my appeal claiming that that was the case which I find completely bizzare! Again, how can they claim SYL restrictions apply when at the same time say on a weekday you could park there for a fee?

Anyways this is the text of their rejection:

" [City of Westminster Logo]
City of Westminster

Our Ref: WE01806280
Mr [Redacted]
[Address Line 1 Redacted]
[Address Line 2 Redacted]
[Address Line 3 Redacted]
[Postcode Redacted]
[Email Address Redacted]
05 March 2018
Penalty Charge Notice No: WE01806280
Date of Contravention: 17/02/2018 10:00:52
Vehicle Registration Mark: [Registration Number Redacted]
Location: Church Street [b11]
Contravention Code: 01
Contravention Description: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
Dear Mr [Surname Redacted]
Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN), issued as the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) believed the vehicle to be parked on a single yellow line during the controlled hours.
Your challenge against this PCN has been rejected because the restrictions at this location begin at 8:30am as clearly stated on the nearby signage.
You state that you believed you could park here before 10am and that the CEO should not have issued the PCN until a few minutes after the restrictions began. I can confirm that the controlled hours began at 8:30am, so vehicles are permitted to stop here to load/unload. In relation to the time plate that you have referenced, this details that no vehicles are permitted at this location from 10am – 4pm on Saturdays. Whilst I appreciate that you were parked prior to 10am, the vehicle was parked in contravention to the single yellow line restrictions.
Parking information signs displayed in the City of Westminster comply with the guidelines set down by the Department for Transport.
After reviewing your case and the evidence provided, I am satisfied that the CEO correctly served the PCN.
I am able to offer you a further 14 days, from the date of this letter, to pay the PCN at the discounted rate.
You now have two options:
Option 1 - Payment at Discounted Rate
Please now make a payment of £65.00. This is the discounted rate and the charge will revert to its full amount of £130.00 if we do not receive the 50% discounted payment within the specified 14 days.
Payments can be made by:
- Cheque or Postal Order made payable to `City of Westminster`. This should be sent to Parking
Services, City of Westminster, PO Box 733, Redhill, RH1 9FN. Please state the PCN number on the back
of the cheque/PO.
- Visa/Delta/MasterCard/Maestro/Switch. You can call Westminster Parking Services on 020 7823 4567.
Lines are open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
- Online at http://www.westminster.gov.uk/paypcn.
- In person at any Post Office in Westminster. Details of branch locations can be found at
www.westminster.gov.uk/postoffice.
Option 2 - Make a Formal Representation
If you do not pay within 14 days from the date of this letter, the full charge of £130.00 will fall due. If you
have not paid before the end of this 14 day period or the period of 28 days beginning with the date of
service of the PCN, whichever is the later, then we will issue a Notice to Owner (NtO) to the registered
keeper of the vehicle. The NtO will allow the registered keeper to make full payment or a formal
Representation, appealing against the issue of the PCN; the procedure for doing so will be explained on
the NtO. Any new evidence can be presented with the formal Representation.
We will consider any representations, even where we have previously concluded that the evidence does
not merit cancellation of the PCN. If we reject the formal representation, the keeper will be able to appeal
to an independent parking adjudicator, who will be able to consider whether the motorist's case falls within
any of the statutory grounds for appeal. It is not possible to appeal to a parking adjudicator without going
through the process of making a formal representation to the local authority.
Yours sincerely
Adam Warnes, Head of Parking Services
Parking Services, City Of Westminster Telephone: 020 7823 4567
PO Box 733 Textphone: 020 7641 8000
Redhill
RH1 9FN www.westminster.gov.uk
"


Here are pictures of everything:

Car Pic 1 = http://tinypic.com/r/33jh8k8/9

Car Pic 2 = http://tinypic.com/r/2yv2ski/9

Car Pic 3 = http://tinypic.com/r/29mrqja/9

Car Pic 4 = http://tinypic.com/r/jj5tuh/9

Alleged SYL sign = http://tinypic.com/r/5mlmrd/9

Next day pic to show relative positions (ignore position of car that day as its different) = http://tinypic.com/r/1825w4/9
1 – Position of Saturday entry restriction 10am – 4pm
2 – Position of allegedly contravened SYL sign
3 – Position of parking bay sign and right where car was parked that day

PCN Front Pic 1 = http://tinypic.com/r/vx17i8/9

PCN Front Pic 2 = http://tinypic.com/r/33nuao7/9

PCN Front Pic 3 = http://tinypic.com/r/2ahv2pc/9

Pic 1 Provided by CEO = http://tinypic.com/r/15ytduo/9

Pic 2 Provided by CEO = http://tinypic.com/r/2hrjvxv/9

Pic 3 Provided by CEO = http://tinypic.com/r/r88ccn/9

Pic 4 Provided by CEO = http://tinypic.com/r/29vm68/9

Online PCN Screenshot = http://tinypic.com/r/30t6h3c/9

Sign showing Saturday restrictions = http://tinypic.com/r/bj8mbp/9


Please could you provide me your opinions on the above - do I have any grounds to appeal any further or shall I just pay the fine during the extended discount period? I have appealed 6 other PCNs this year with help from here and have had a 100% success rate thanks to this forum!

Much appreciated,
Hustler6969
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post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 23:16
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stamfordman
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 23:22
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EDIT

Where's the pic of the sign for the bay you parked in?

The traffic restriction (10am-4pm) has nothing to do with the PCN you've got so it seems to be about the status of the single yellow vs the bay.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 23:39
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 23:58
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Can you re post the pcn using a decent hosting site tiny pic is difficult to make out. post a GSV of the location i can only find no parking Saturday 8.30 til 6.30

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5236983,-...3312!8i6656


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hustler6969
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 00:02
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The very first picture titled 'Car Pic 1' - thats literally my car behind the sign!

I feel like they're fishing basically, because the CEO provided both pics of the Saturday restriction and the SYL restrictions in his evidence pics..

Sorry, I'm new to this so not replying directly to your posts but posting underneath - what other hosting site can I use? (I seem to be able view the PCN pic on tinypic fine?)
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 00:28
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QUOTE (hustler6969 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 00:02) *
The very first picture titled 'Car Pic 1' - thats literally my car behind the sign!

I feel like they're fishing basically, because the CEO provided both pics of the Saturday restriction and the SYL restrictions in his evidence pics..

Sorry, I'm new to this so not replying directly to your posts but posting underneath - what other hosting site can I use? (I seem to be able view the PCN pic on tinypic fine?)


Ok can manage with the pics but forget about the no vehicles from 10.00am it is not relevant to parking

The sign shown in car 1 is not an authorised rd sign. from pic 4 it seems that their is a parking sign but no, no waiting sign.

You have the advantage, you know the location please post a GSV so we can look around at the signs

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 00:29


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hustler6969
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 00:33
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My laptops being a bit funny but heres some GSV pics off the phone app:

Entry into Church Street from B507 Lisson Grove - http://tinypic.com/r/30k4uu0/9

Just after entry into Church Street - http://tinypic.com/r/xkugir/9
(If you look for the shop 'Number One Churchstreet' in the background should take you straight there)

View of where I was parked - my car was parked exactly where that 'Hadene' van is parked - http://tinypic.com/r/2rgdl6q/9
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hustler6969
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 00:43
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https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.52462...5,117.52h,5p,1z

Hopefully above is exactly above 'Number One ChurchStreet'

Here's the 'road sign' which I've just realised if probably what you mean: http://tinypic.com/r/2lmq5nd/9

Also, to clarify PASTMYBEST, when you say 'forget about the no vehicles from 10.00am it is not relevant to parking' - would it not be the case that you can't enter the road anyway, so how could you park there?

Thanks though guys, will check back in tomorrow, cheeeers

This post has been edited by hustler6969: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 00:46
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 08:29
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I am trying to help. So you commit a moving traffic offence and get a parking ticket ??? No it is alleged you parked during a parking restriction. from my examination of GSV i see SYL and time plates stating Saturday 8.30 am to 6.30 pm.

if these are adequate, you are bang to rights.

but your pictures show a bay with a parking sign but no yellow time plate. I want to examine the area around there(presumably where you parked) to see the condition of the signage Over to you


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hcandersen
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 09:03
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More photos than you can shake a stick at, but the key one isn't there i.e. the traffic sign which regulates the parking place!

This is not difficult so pl don't go to moving traffic signs and extraneous matters.

1. You were parked where road markings indicate a parking place.
2. You are then required to find the traffic sign which regulates the location situated in or within the vicinity of the parking place.
3. GSV shows (but you must confirm, preferably with a photo) a traffic sign with a single panel.
4. See para. 7.30 of the Traffic Signs Manual - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-03.pdf
5. There appears to be a SYL in the parking place.

The signing is wrong and you would win at adjudication IMO.

Your challenge did not help your cause as it resembles a rambling shotgun, if there is such a beast.

Write back to the authority:
Do they accept that the sign on which they rely is that in the photograph?
Do they accept that this is not situated in the parking place which is the location of the alleged contravention?
Are they aware that when parking in a parking place a motorist is only obliged to consult a traffic sign situated within the parking place?
Are the authority aware that when waiting restrictions exist in part-time parking places the traffic sign must conform to diagram
639.1B - see enclosed? For further information, I refer the authority to Schedule 4 to the Traffic Signs etc. Regulations 2016:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-03.pdf

If the officer considering this matter is in any doubt, I suggest they consult with their colleagues in the highways department.
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hustler6969
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 09:13
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Apologies PASTMYBEST, didn't mean to be rude there!

And I think I understand your first point now - basically that a parking offence and moving traffic offence are two different things.

And yes, I suppose that is what I'm trying to establish here - whether where I was parked was a single yellow line or a parking bay?

The issue is as you can see here its a weird combination of both - it looks like there is a marked parking bay for which there are formal parking signs and all nearby. At the same time, it seems like a faded yellow line going through the parking bays as well (please see either side of the 'HADENE' van - so I'm confused?

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.52449...7h,-11.1p,0.93z

I suppose my question would be if you've come across other scenarios such as this, where effectively there is a SYL restriction on the whole road, then theres parking bays within those where you have dispensation to park for a fee within the prescribed paid hours, but anytime between outside those paid hours and the SYL restrictions you're not allowed to park anymore (i.e. reverts back to a full SYL)?



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stamfordman
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 09:20
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This is the sign then - there are no times on it - it looks like a council mistake - and the yellow timeplate for the yellow line underneath is missing or maybe they've changed everything in the street.

If the bay is the primary thing that sign tells me you have to pay to park at all times. There is the pay by phone instructions on the pole which do have times but these should be on the sign.

So the other question is - did you obey the sign and pay for parking?



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 09:22
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hustler6969
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 09:21
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HCAndersen, back at work so will be MIA for a bit, loving your points though, will review and reply in a bit!
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hcandersen
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 09:28
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To focus on the issue:

You are alleged to have breached a waiting restriction in a part-time parking place.

The sign MUST contain all restrictions i.e. waiting and parking, and the waiting restriction MUST be in the prescribed form and be situated in a panel above the parking restriction.

It doesn't and isn't.

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hustler6969
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 10:34
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Thanks HCAndersen, so I guess the crux of our argument then is that there shouldve been a 639.1B sign containing ALL the restrictions (including SYL and it isn't), yes?

And, in your penultimate post did you mean I should write to them with those questions at formal appeal stage, or informal correspondence? Also, if I was to write in formal appeal, presumably I'll have to wait till the formal NTO is issued? (Apologies for the poor knowledge, I've never had the honour of making it to NTO stage yet!)
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hcandersen
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:39
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I'd write back now.

Preface it with...

PCN No.*******

I refer to the above PCN which was issued in respect of an alleged breach of a part-time waiting restriction in a part-time parking place, my challenge dated *** and your rejection by letter dated **** which raises serious issues regarding the authority's consideration of my representations. For the purposes of clarity only at this stage, would the authority please respond to the following points which arise directly from their letter:

a
b
c.etc.....




Thank you.

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hustler6969
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:50
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By post you mean? Or is there an email option?

Second class signed for okay?

I'll upload a draft here once I've got it sorted, thanks
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John U.K.
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:57
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QUOTE
By post you mean? Or is there an email option?

Second class signed for okay?


If using post, post 1stclass at post office and get (free) proof of posting.
Signed for/recporded dellivery does not work for large sacksful of mail sad.gif

If usng post, online or e-mail, make sure you have kept a hard copy, and also print off any acknowlegement of electronic submission.
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hustler6969
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 13:52
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:57) *
QUOTE
By post you mean? Or is there an email option?

Second class signed for okay?


If using post, post 1stclass at post office and get (free) proof of posting.
Signed for/recporded dellivery does not work for large sacksful of mail sad.gif

If usng post, online or e-mail, make sure you have kept a hard copy, and also print off any acknowlegement of electronic submission.


I would've preferred email, where there's more visibility for both sides but there dosen't seem to be an email address for Westminster Council Parking Services on their website, unless I'm wrong?

Failing that there's their 'Parking Enquiry and Feedback Form' - https://www.westminster.gov.uk/parking-enqu...d-feedback-form

Shall I use that or would you guys say post is better?
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stamfordman
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 13:57
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Call and ask for correct email - Parking Services, City Of Westminster Telephone: 020 7823 4567
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hustler6969
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:32
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:39) *
I'd write back now.

Preface it with...

PCN No.*******

I refer to the above PCN which was issued in respect of an alleged breach of a part-time waiting restriction in a part-time parking place, my challenge dated *** and your rejection by letter dated **** which raises serious issues regarding the authority's consideration of my representations. For the purposes of clarity only at this stage, would the authority please respond to the following points which arise directly from their letter:

a
b
c.etc.....




Thank you.


Right, managed to get an email address from them: parkingappeals@westminster.gov.uk

Ok, what subject do I put in the email: PCN Number and what?

Please review draft proposed email:

PCN No. WE01806280
Registration: [XXX XXX]

I refer to the above PCN which was issued in respect of an alleged breach of a part-time waiting restriction in a part-time parking place, my challenge dated 01/03/2018 and your rejection by letter dated 05/03/2018 which raises serious issues regarding the authority's consideration of my representations. For the purposes of clarity only at this stage, would the authority please respond to the following points which arise directly from their letter:

1) Do they accept that the sign on which they rely is that in the photograph? [Attach CEO's SYL sign pic]
2) Do they accept that this is not situated in the parking place which is the location of the alleged contravention?
3) Are they aware that when parking in a parking place a motorist is only obliged to consult a traffic sign situated within the parking place?
4) Are the authority aware that when waiting restrictions exist in part-time parking places the traffic sign must conform to diagram
639.1B - see enclosed? For further information, I refer the authority to Schedule 4 to the Traffic Signs etc. Regulations 2016:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-03.pdf

If the officer considering this matter is in any doubt, I suggest they consult with their colleagues in the highways department.


Thank you,
[Name]
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