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NEED HELP URGENT, Dear Parking & Property Management Limited
chimpta
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:55
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I have been issued with a PCN from Parking & Property Management Limited. I had a permit but it has fallen on the floor. I have written appeal to them.



Without prejudice, except as to costs

Dear Parking & Property Management Limited

Ref: 9xxxx
Reg: xxxxxx

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (PCN) issued by Parking & Property Management Limited (“PPM”) on 05/09/2018 in respect of an alleged parking charge incurred by the above-detailed vehicle at Sanderson Building.

I am appealing this PCN as I had a valid parking permit displayed. When i came to the car I was shocked to see the PCN. when I open the car I have the permit has fallen the car seat.

Please find the attached parking permit that was issued to me as a resident of Sanderson Building.

In Addition I should be grateful if you would first answer all the questions and deal with all the issues I have set out below. Once you have done so, I will be able to make an informed decision on how I deal with the matter.

I should be grateful for specific answers to all questions raised. In this respect I remind you of the obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

I dispute your claim for the reasons set out below. Please note that although I dispute the whole basis of the parking charge, my main concern is its disproportionate and punitive level.

1. Your parking charge amount claim.

Please explain on which of the following grounds your claim is based:

(i) Damages for trespass
(ii) Damages for breach of contract
(iii) A contractual sum
2. Your loss.

If it is your case that that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages; please give me a full breakdown of the actual losses which evidences that this parking charge is a true reflection of the damages caused solely by the alleged parking contravention.

3. Your status – the creditor.

Your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper simply mentions Parking Control Management UK Ltd (PCM). Please tell me who is the actual creditor making this £100.00 parking charge demand. I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity.

4. Ownership of premises.

Please tell me who owns the Land on Sanderson Building as I wish to send them a copy of this letter.

5. Contractual Authority

Please provide me with a copy of the contract between your company and the landowner/landholder that provides the necessary contractual written authority for the issue and enforcement of your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper.

6. Signage.

If it is your case that a contract has been breached or that a contractual sum is now due, please send me photographs of the signs that you display and upon which you seek to evidence that a lawful and legally enforceable contract was been entered into. Please ensure that the photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner. Please provide me with a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the car park. Also provide evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to a driver at the car park’s entry point.

7. Summary

I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and as there are no ‘exceptional circumstances’ your comprehensive reply within 35 days. I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I deal with your Parking Charge Notice – Notice to Keeper.

If you reject this challenge or fail to address the issues that have been raised then, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘The Independent Appeal Service code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.

If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the Independent Parking Committee (IPC) Code of Practice or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16.

Please Note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation.



Yours faithfully,








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post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:55
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cabbyman
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:03
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Nope!

Remove the pic of the permit; it's irrelevant and has too much personal detail.

Remove your proposed draft; too much personal detail AND it identifies the driver.

The most important thing with PPCs is only ever to speak as the keeper. Refer to the driver in the 3rd person. THIS IS CRUCIAL.

Your rights will be contained in your lease. If the lease doesn't mention parking or parking controls, you should be on fairly safe ground. However, we need to know the wording on the lease, see a copy of the suitably redacted PCN and know the date of the alleged infraction.

EDIT following a Google search: Is this in Scotland or E&W?



This post has been edited by cabbyman: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:05


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Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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Eljayjay
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 22:21
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If you are the leasehold owner of your flat, then your lease is of paramount importance.

If you are the tenant of a buy-to-rent landlord, then there are two documents of paramount importance: your landlord’s lease; and your tenancy agreement.

In the latter event, if your landlord will not let you have a copy of his/her lease, you can get a copy from the Land Registry by completing a form OC2 and paying a modest fee. Please note that you cannot get the lease online.

If you post the document(s) as PDFs, I shall gladly take a look at it or them (after redacting any personal data). [Due to their size, you will very probably have to upload them to another site and provide a link to them here rather than simply posting them here.]


If you have not sent your appeal yet, keep it that way for a while.

Your letter is far better than many first time efforts, but some of it is wrong and there are many other questions to ask.
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chimpta
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:38
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Sorry - I panicked I sent the letter without seeing the above response.

In any case, they have rejected my case... and I need to know what i can do ...

here is the response of the case.

Any assistance is highly appreciated

This post has been edited by chimpta: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:49
Attached File(s)
Attached File  appeal_response.pdf ( 143.06K ) Number of downloads: 8
 
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bearclaw
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:41
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Stop panicking. You have plenty of time and this is not irretrivable.

Listen to Elijayjay he knows his stuff. As this is a lease case you need to tell us where you are (England Wales or Scotland) as the rules are different.

Get copies of your lease and removing your personal information from it upload a copy as a PDF file. If you can do the same with the landlords head lease do the same.

Stop panicking.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:45
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Also you didnt attach anything
Dont use forum space
Use another hosting site. NOT photobucket.
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chimpta
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:57
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 22:21) *
If you are the leasehold owner of your flat, then your lease is of paramount importance.

If you are the tenant of a buy-to-rent landlord, then there are two documents of paramount importance: your landlord’s lease; and your tenancy agreement.

In the latter event, if your landlord will not let you have a copy of his/her lease, you can get a copy from the Land Registry by completing a form OC2 and paying a modest fee. Please note that you cannot get the lease online.

If you post the document(s) as PDFs, I shall gladly take a look at it or them (after redacting any personal data). [Due to their size, you will very probably have to upload them to another site and provide a link to them here rather than simply posting them here.]


If you have not sent your appeal yet, keep it that way for a while.

Your letter is far better than many first time efforts, but some of it is wrong and there are many other questions to ask.


appologies the appeal was already sent before seeing this response.

This vehicle that I have is on long term Hire Purchase. At the moment I have only appealed the ticket when it was stuck on the vehicle but did not receive the Notice to Keeper.... In addition, if the Notice to keeper is issued it will go to the keeper of the vehicle who woll charge me £10-15 admin fees...

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ManxRed
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 09:58
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It doesn't matter, do it anyway.

Your appeal will be rejected, and it probably would have been if you'd included the stuff regarding your lease. This is all for if and when (a) they pursue this further, and (b) inevitably start issuing more tickets on your vehicle in future for minor transgressions.

There's a chance that - now you have probably outed yourself as the driver, and presumably provided them with an address to respond to, that they won't contact the lease company. In any event, the terms with the lease company may not include speculative invoices in respect of a civil claim (which is what this is) and may only cover parking penalties issued by a relevant authority under legislation (which this ISN'T). But that's another matter.

Stop panicking and take a deep breath, and let's get on with defending this ticket.

This post has been edited by ManxRed: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 10:01


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Eljayjay
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 13:22
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chimpta

There is no need to apologise.

There is, however, a need for you to post your lease here (after redacting any personal data). Due to its size, you will almost certainly need to upload the lease to another website and post a link to it here.
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chimpta
post Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 08:36
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 13:22) *
chimpta

There is no need to apologise.

There is, however, a need for you to post your lease here (after redacting any personal data). Due to its size, you will almost certainly need to upload the lease to another website and post a link to it here.


The property was given to me and my family by the Local Authority through Housing Association. So the only thing I may have is Tenancy agreement. Would this suffice?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 09:04
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We dont know, because we dont know what it says

Lease / TA / AST etc are all the same thing - the legal agreement between you and the freeholder or head lessor.
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 12:02
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So, yes, post the tenancy agreement.

Ask the housing association whether they lease the flat and, if so, ask for a copy of their lease.
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chimpta
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 09:28
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This is the sample of tenancy agreement from the housing association

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v77t0b2fynfv32k/6...sample.pdf?dl=0

This post has been edited by chimpta: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 09:30
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ostell
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 12:29
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I notice that on the permit letter it makes a statement that no response means that they assume that you agree to the terms and conditions. This could suggest that they know they do not have the rights to enforce.
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Eljayjay
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:06
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chimpta

I am sorry to have taken so long to come back to you.

As one might expect, parking is governed by your AST.

You have a clause [26(iv) on page 27] in your AST which states that you agree:-

To comply with any parking or penalty notices
or fines issued to you by us or any parking
management company managing the estate.

As the above clause does not mention any amount, it is so vague that it is probably unenforceable. Certainly, any charge would need to be reasonable. Someone has tried to be too clever by far.

If that were not enough, you have another clause [12 on page 9] in your AST which states:-

It is agreed that for the purposes of the
Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999,
this agreement is not intended to and does not
give rights to any third parties to enforce any
provision contained in it.

That makes it abundantly clear that a person, who is not a party to the AST (such as the parking operator), cannot enforce the provision contained in clause 26(iv).

So, you can rest easy. You can ignore anything which comes except two things. The first is a letter of claim/letter before claim/letter before action - they are all the same thing. Such a letter will very probably come from Gladstones Solicitors (as opposed to Parking & Property Management Limited). The second is a formal claim from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton.

If you receive either a letter of claim/letter before claim/letter before action or a formal claim, come back here for further advice.

This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:07
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chimpta
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 17:43
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:06) *
chimpta

I am sorry to have taken so long to come back to you.

As one might expect, parking is governed by your AST.

You have a clause [26(iv) on page 27] in your AST which states that you agree:-

To comply with any parking or penalty notices
or fines issued to you by us or any parking
management company managing the estate.

As the above clause does not mention any amount, it is so vague that it is probably unenforceable. Certainly, any charge would need to be reasonable. Someone has tried to be too clever by far.

If that were not enough, you have another clause [12 on page 9] in your AST which states:-

It is agreed that for the purposes of the
Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999,
this agreement is not intended to and does not
give rights to any third parties to enforce any
provision contained in it.

That makes it abundantly clear that a person, who is not a party to the AST (such as the parking operator), cannot enforce the provision contained in clause 26(iv).

So, you can rest easy. You can ignore anything which comes except two things. The first is a letter of claim/letter before claim/letter before action - they are all the same thing. Such a letter will very probably come from Gladstones Solicitors (as opposed to Parking & Property Management Limited). The second is a formal claim from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton.

If you receive either a letter of claim/letter before claim/letter before action or a formal claim, come back here for further advice.



Many thanks for your advice. Please excuse my ignorance. What do you mean b AST. In addition how does one goes to POPLA, does this mean is only for BPA members only.

I really appreciate all your hard work and assistance .
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:33
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Try not to rely on just one poster who has been noticed as focussing on steering all current residential PCN cases in one direction, chimpta.

Just my opinion but it seems to me too many posters with residential PCNs are currently being told by Eljayjay to run a complicated defence and counter claim, that it's easy to see that new posters might not understand. He's recently tried the same on MSE - do take advice from all of us here, and be forum savvy (my advice is, no taking a case to private message, or emails off forum).

Anyway, an AST is of course your Assured Shorthold Tenancy..., as nosferatu1001 already told you:

QUOTE
Lease / TA / AST etc are all the same thing - the legal agreement between you and the freeholder or head lessor.


QUOTE
In addition how does one goes to POPLA, does this mean is only for BPA members only.
You can't - BPA new PCNs only.

Come back at LBC or court stage, but in the meantime, please read other LBC and claim threads and other advice, other defences, to see what's what and be prepared so you don't hang on the coat-tails of a poster who seems somewhat controlling of all the current residential cases right now, and whose words and style of defence has reminded some of us of an alter ego forum poster.
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