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LTI 20-20 operations manual
Hassan2015
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 11:42
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Looking through the net, I found numerous manuals for the Lti device, the one used by mostly ALL the forces in their camera vans and ...

I remember about 10 years ago, I was fighting a case and asked for the manual to be presented, but the CPS jumped up and started to scream that this is a sensitive document and can't be released!

But it seems in 2011, they have finally lost the battle and there seems to be manuals from forces all over the country on their websites for DL!

Shame this wasn't released 10 years ago!


Out of curiosity, have anyone used the manual successfully in courts to prove that the recommendations by the manufacturer wasn't carried out? things like sight alignment and instrument accuracy checks?

H

This post has been edited by Hassan2015: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 11:43
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post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 11:42
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andy_foster
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 11:44
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Is your question related to a live case, or could you simply not bother to see if we had an appropriate forum for questions relating to speed detection devices?


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Hassan2015
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 12:11
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It is related to a live case where it was used in fog on a dual carriage way.

I would have provided more information, but currently awaiting to see I have actually been caught or not.

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mrh3369
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 12:14
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If you don't even know if you were caught how on earth can you know what device was being used?


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Edited as my IPhone thinks it knows best and changes my posts…
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Gan
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 12:14
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If it's this case, you could pay the fine and costs out of tickets and popcorn sales

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=96231

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Hassan2015
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 12:53
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No, that case is a average speed case.

This one, was in the early hours of the morning, 7.30am on a SUNDAY! going to work down a dual carriage way. Then saw the camera van in distance.

The constabulary in question has bought about 4 new vans in the recent 12 months and they pop up all over the place. They all use the LTI20-20 device with a huge lens on them which according to a spokesman for the force, they can pick up a car from a mile away!

I don't like these devices since they rely on a operator operating them correctly. where as the fixed devices, don't rely on human error! I know I wasn't speeding, but due to the fog and mist, what if the device recorded incorrectly?

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George Carter
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 12:57
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QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 12:11) *
It is related to a live case where it was used in fog on a dual carriage way.

I would have provided more information, but currently awaiting to see I have actually been caught or not.



As long as they had a clear line of sight then fog shouldn't be an issue.


QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 12:53) *
No, that case is a average speed case.

This one, was in the early hours of the morning, 7.30am on a SUNDAY! going to work down a dual carriage way. Then saw the camera van in distance.

The constabulary in question has bought about 4 new vans in the recent 12 months and they pop up all over the place. They all use the LTI20-20 device with a huge lens on them which according to a spokesman for the force, they can pick up a car from a mile away!

I don't like these devices since they rely on a operator operating them correctly. where as the fixed devices, don't rely on human error! I know I wasn't speeding, but due to the fog and mist, what if the device recorded incorrectly?



If you could see him, he can see you.

But then if you weren't speeding or don't have a nip this is a nothing thread.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:20
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The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Hassan2015
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:57
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:20) *
The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.


1km is about half a mile? But they say it can pick you up from about a mile away!

I am not a photographer, but I know when I zoom in from a very long distance, then the slightest movements in hand, can have a big impact on the position of the target!

Unless it is just a scare tactic and although it works up to a mile, due to false reads in the real world, they only use it at shorter distances?

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southpaw82
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:59
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That's why its securely mounted and not hand held.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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George Carter
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 15:08
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QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:20) *
The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.


1km is about half a mile? But they say it can pick you up from about a mile away!

I am not a photographer, but I know when I zoom in from a very long distance, then the slightest movements in hand, can have a big impact on the position of the target!

Unless it is just a scare tactic and although it works up to a mile, due to false reads in the real world, they only use it at shorter distances?


The manual says it has a range of 1000m, which comic did you read saying it was 1 mile?
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Jlc
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 15:20
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If you have been caught remember to respond to the s172 unequivocally.

They operate at all times of day - the only defence is not to speed.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 18:08
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One km is a bit further than half a mile....


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Hassan2015
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 18:13
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QUOTE (George Carter @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 15:08) *
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:20) *
The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.


1km is about half a mile? But they say it can pick you up from about a mile away!

I am not a photographer, but I know when I zoom in from a very long distance, then the slightest movements in hand, can have a big impact on the position of the target!

Unless it is just a scare tactic and although it works up to a mile, due to false reads in the real world, they only use it at shorter distances?


The manual says it has a range of 1000m, which comic did you read saying it was 1 mile?



This is what I was told by an operator of one when I met him at one of those country fairs that they come and sit there for people to take a look around.


I must say though inside it look awesome. Not what I really thought what it would look like !
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George Carter
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 18:21
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QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 18:13) *
QUOTE (George Carter @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 15:08) *
QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 14:20) *
The LTi 20.20 has always worked to 1km.


1km is about half a mile? But they say it can pick you up from about a mile away!

I am not a photographer, but I know when I zoom in from a very long distance, then the slightest movements in hand, can have a big impact on the position of the target!

Unless it is just a scare tactic and although it works up to a mile, due to false reads in the real world, they only use it at shorter distances?


The manual says it has a range of 1000m, which comic did you read saying it was 1 mile?



This is what I was told by an operator of one when I met him at one of those country fairs that they come and sit there for people to take a look around.


I must say though inside it look awesome. Not what I really thought what it would look like !


Well if you've seen inside you'll know the gun is mounted and not hand held.
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Hassan2015
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 19:29
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I do. However i am sure you know when you are on the side of a road, specially a dual carriage way, then any car that goes past you will make your car rock slightly. Now if you are trying to ping a car which is 1Km is away or more, then any movements in the car can cause the camera to move and possibly give a slip error?

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mrh3369
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 19:55
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Clutching at straws I'm afraid, you would have to go to court and try to prove that and the cost of failure could be very high if expert witnesses are brought in.


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baggins1234
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 20:09
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QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 19:29) *
I do. However i am sure you know when you are on the side of a road, specially a dual carriage way, then any car that goes past you will make your car rock slightly. Now if you are trying to ping a car which is 1Km is away or more, then any movements in the car can cause the camera to move and possibly give a slip error?



It's in a van not a car...will a car passing a van rock it sufficiently?
Can you say that such a movement occurred?
Even if it did....did you see it occur?
If yes, which vehicle caused it to move?
Bearing in mind you've already said it was foggy.....

Sorry but I agree with Mrh3369 in that you're clutching at straws
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George Carter
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 20:24
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QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 19:29) *
I do. However i am sure you know when you are on the side of a road, specially a dual carriage way, then any car that goes past you will make your car rock slightly. Now if you are trying to ping a car which is 1Km is away or more, then any movements in the car can cause the camera to move and possibly give a slip error?


It would be 1km or less, not more.

If you think that and you have been caught plead not guilty, as for the recording in the ping and then find yourself and expert to convince the court that's what happened.
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justforthepictur...
post Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 20:55
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QUOTE (Hassan2015 @ Sat, 24 Jan 2015 - 13:53) *
No, that case is a average speed case.

This one, was in the early hours of the morning, 7.30am on a SUNDAY! going to work down a dual carriage way. Then saw the camera van in distance.

The constabulary in question has bought about 4 new vans in the recent 12 months and they pop up all over the place. They all use the LTI20-20 device with a huge lens on them which according to a spokesman for the force, they can pick up a car from a mile away!

I don't like these devices since they rely on a operator operating them correctly. where as the fixed devices, don't rely on human error! I know I wasn't speeding, but due to the fog and mist, what if the device recorded incorrectly?

The 'huge' lens isn't attached to the speedscope, it's connected to the video camera. The latest lens being offered with new kit are Canon image stabilised, that come with an optional x2 converter allowing a focal length of 1000mm.

This has no impact on the operation of the laser whatsoever and is used solely for the purposes of vehicle identification. The greater the magnification available, the more operational flexibility you have at sites with very long stretches of carriageway.

One other point, remember, the UK LTI manuals you see available will usually be produced by the importers NOT the manufacturer.


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'Speed Kills' simply means, hit something or someone fast enough and it will result in a fatality.
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