PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Bus lane PCN blank ‘from’ and ‘to’ on PCN
jonouk
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 08:30
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 36
Joined: 25 May 2016
Member No.: 84,574



Hi,

My mother received a PCN for a contravention 33J -using a route restricted to certain vehicles - from London Borough of Havering. On the PCN it states “The vehicle above was observed from to on 28/01/18 ...” I.e. the from and to spaces are blank. I have attached an image of the PCN with details scrubbed.

My question is, does that make the PCN invalid? She would like to appeal on mitigating grounds as it was leaving hostpital after my fathers cancer diagnosis, however if this is easier it might be much quicker.

Thanks in advance


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 39)
Advertisement
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 08:30
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
jonouk
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 12:58
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 36
Joined: 25 May 2016
Member No.: 84,574



OK good enough for me.

So, on to the form, there are only 3 questions really (outside of admin):

4. Would you like a postal or personal decision?

5 Grounds of appeal

"The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur" seems the only applicable one (there is no procedural impropriety option and the other options are stolen, hired or not the owner; or penally charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case)

6. Details of appeal - should I restate anything or add anything or just attached the formal representations?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:14
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,268
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (jonouk @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:58) *
OK good enough for me.

So, on to the form,

Just hold fire a mo.
More to say/discuss yet.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:22
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Do not ignore the signage as they did either.
You gave a clear description, including map and photos showing no signs on the route you took.
They simply say signs were in accordance but ignored otherwise.
Basic tenet of enforcement is that signs must adequately convey the restriction.
They have failed to show any indication that signs were present, simply saying that the motorist must be aware of restrictions.
The latter is true but can only be achieved with signage.
If it ain't there, the contravention did not happen.

To me this is the elephant in the room and should be dealt with before any technical issues, not as an afterthought.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 14:31
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 14:22) *
Do not ignore the signage as they did either.
You gave a clear description, including map and photos showing no signs on the route you took.
They simply say signs were in accordance but ignored otherwise.
Basic tenet of enforcement is that signs must adequately convey the restriction.
They have failed to show any indication that signs were present, simply saying that the motorist must be aware of restrictions.
The latter is true but can only be achieved with signage.
If it ain't there, the contravention did not happen.

To me this is the elephant in the room and should be dealt with before any technical issues, not as an afterthought.


+1

A sound appeal against the contravention is always best, technical' s second Though I would like to see the council get their bottie slapped re the technical issue


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jonouk
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:11
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 36
Joined: 25 May 2016
Member No.: 84,574



So I covered both inadequate signage and procedural impropriety in the original representations. Should I include anything over and above that?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 22:59
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,268
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (jonouk @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 16:11) *
So I covered both inadequate signage and procedural impropriety in the original representations. Should I include anything over and above that?

Sit tight a mo.
We are discussing an issue off forum.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 09:46
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,268
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



Sent you a PM.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 11:58
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 10:46) *
Sent you a PM.


Report from rsg444 that he won on the 21 vs 14 day argument


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 12:00
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,268
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 12:58) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 10:46) *
Sent you a PM.


Report from rsg444 that he won on the 21 vs 14 day argument

Yeah saw it.
I'll explain to Jono what I'm thinking, when I get a mo and copy you in.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 19:41
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,268
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



jonouk

Scrub my idea. It is no longer relevant.
I've just noticed that the rejection was dated 26th Match but you only told us on the 16th April?

So your deadline to submit an appeal is close - 24th

Go ahead and get it registered, now, with details to follow.

Just say 'I rely on my original representations and other matters arising. Full details to follow.'


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jonouk
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:17
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 36
Joined: 25 May 2016
Member No.: 84,574



QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 20:41) *
jonouk

Scrub my idea. It is no longer relevant.
I've just noticed that the rejection was dated 26th Match but you only told us on the 16th April?

So your deadline to submit an appeal is close - 24th

Go ahead and get it registered, now, with details to follow.

Just say 'I rely on my original representations and other matters arising. Full details to follow.'



Yes, you’re right - the trouble with doing things second hand!

Ok will send the form first thing tomorrow. Still not sure what to put for q4 (postal or personal) or q5 (grounds for appeal)

Tia
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:22
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (jonouk @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 22:17) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 20:41) *
jonouk

Scrub my idea. It is no longer relevant.
I've just noticed that the rejection was dated 26th Match but you only told us on the 16th April?

So your deadline to submit an appeal is close - 24th

Go ahead and get it registered, now, with details to follow.

Just say 'I rely on my original representations and other matters arising. Full details to follow.'



Yes, you’re right - the trouble with doing things second hand!

Ok will send the form first thing tomorrow. Still not sure what to put for q4 (postal or personal) or q5 (grounds for appeal)

Tia


Q4 put personal, you can always change later. Q5 just write full submission to follow. They will acknowledge registration and at a later date tell you by when you must make these submissions


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jonouk
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:32
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 36
Joined: 25 May 2016
Member No.: 84,574



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 22:22) *
Q4 put personal, you can always change later. Q5 just write full submission to follow. They will acknowledge registration and at a later date tell you by when you must make these submissions


Q5 is the Grounds for appeal - I’m thinking the only option is “The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur” as there’s no ‘procedural impropriety ‘ option.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:39
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (jonouk @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 22:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 22:22) *
Q4 put personal, you can always change later. Q5 just write full submission to follow. They will acknowledge registration and at a later date tell you by when you must make these submissions


Q5 is the Grounds for appeal - I’m thinking the only option is “The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur” as there’s no ‘procedural impropriety ‘ option.


sorry. Its contravention did not occur for the signage and the penalty exceeded etc for the PI this is because if the PCN is invalid then the penalty can only be nil


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 23:17
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,268
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



Do bear in mind only Mother can do this, or gives you written authority.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jonouk
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 06:18
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 36
Joined: 25 May 2016
Member No.: 84,574



QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 21 Apr 2018 - 00:17) *
Do bear in mind only Mother can do this, or gives you written authority.


Yes, mother did the online version and nominated me as her representative. Personal hearing for 24th May confirmed this morning by email schedule.

Do you need any info from that?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jonouk
post Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 21:32
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 36
Joined: 25 May 2016
Member No.: 84,574



Hello, Was there an outcome of the off forum discussions about the best way to present the appeal? The hearing is scheduled for May 24th.

TIA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 22:37
Post #38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (jonouk @ Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 22:32) *
Hello, Was there an outcome of the off forum discussions about the best way to present the appeal? The hearing is scheduled for May 24th.

TIA


By when must you make submissions?


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 22:45
Post #39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,268
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (jonouk @ Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 22:32) *
Hello, Was there an outcome of the off forum discussions about the best way to present the appeal? The hearing is scheduled for May 24th.

TIA

See post #30.
It was too late to use.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jonouk
post Tue, 1 May 2018 - 06:44
Post #40


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 36
Joined: 25 May 2016
Member No.: 84,574



QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 23:45) *
QUOTE (jonouk @ Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 22:32) *
Hello, Was there an outcome of the off forum discussions about the best way to present the appeal? The hearing is scheduled for May 24th.

TIA

See post #30.
It was too late to use.


Oh, ok. Is there *nothing* I can do now then, or is the consensus I can still win the appeal on the original representations? The hearing is on 24th May and I said I would provide other information as instructed above. I don’t know what that other information is or what the basis of my appeal should be.

I want to use the inadequate signage as the primary reason, and wondered if a video would help, rather than static photos.
After that, the 21/14 day issue as a backup. There is discussion of a previous case above that was successful using that point. Would it help to refer to that and if so, what’s the case and how do I reference it?

I’m happy to be guided here.

Thanks

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 05:53
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here