Bus lane PCN blank ‘from’ and ‘to’ on PCN |
Bus lane PCN blank ‘from’ and ‘to’ on PCN |
Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 08:30
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 25 May 2016 Member No.: 84,574 |
Hi,
My mother received a PCN for a contravention 33J -using a route restricted to certain vehicles - from London Borough of Havering. On the PCN it states “The vehicle above was observed from to on 28/01/18 ...” I.e. the from and to spaces are blank. I have attached an image of the PCN with details scrubbed. My question is, does that make the PCN invalid? She would like to appeal on mitigating grounds as it was leaving hostpital after my fathers cancer diagnosis, however if this is easier it might be much quicker. Thanks in advance |
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Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 08:30
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 12:58
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 25 May 2016 Member No.: 84,574 |
OK good enough for me.
So, on to the form, there are only 3 questions really (outside of admin): 4. Would you like a postal or personal decision? 5 Grounds of appeal "The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur" seems the only applicable one (there is no procedural impropriety option and the other options are stolen, hired or not the owner; or penally charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case) 6. Details of appeal - should I restate anything or add anything or just attached the formal representations? |
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:14
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
OK good enough for me. So, on to the form, Just hold fire a mo. More to say/discuss yet. -------------------- |
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:22
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Do not ignore the signage as they did either.
You gave a clear description, including map and photos showing no signs on the route you took. They simply say signs were in accordance but ignored otherwise. Basic tenet of enforcement is that signs must adequately convey the restriction. They have failed to show any indication that signs were present, simply saying that the motorist must be aware of restrictions. The latter is true but can only be achieved with signage. If it ain't there, the contravention did not happen. To me this is the elephant in the room and should be dealt with before any technical issues, not as an afterthought. |
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 14:31
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Do not ignore the signage as they did either. You gave a clear description, including map and photos showing no signs on the route you took. They simply say signs were in accordance but ignored otherwise. Basic tenet of enforcement is that signs must adequately convey the restriction. They have failed to show any indication that signs were present, simply saying that the motorist must be aware of restrictions. The latter is true but can only be achieved with signage. If it ain't there, the contravention did not happen. To me this is the elephant in the room and should be dealt with before any technical issues, not as an afterthought. +1 A sound appeal against the contravention is always best, technical' s second Though I would like to see the council get their bottie slapped re the technical issue -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:11
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 25 May 2016 Member No.: 84,574 |
So I covered both inadequate signage and procedural impropriety in the original representations. Should I include anything over and above that?
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 22:59
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
So I covered both inadequate signage and procedural impropriety in the original representations. Should I include anything over and above that? Sit tight a mo. We are discussing an issue off forum. -------------------- |
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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 09:46
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Sent you a PM.
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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 11:58
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Sent you a PM. Report from rsg444 that he won on the 21 vs 14 day argument -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 12:00
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Sent you a PM. Report from rsg444 that he won on the 21 vs 14 day argument Yeah saw it. I'll explain to Jono what I'm thinking, when I get a mo and copy you in. -------------------- |
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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 19:41
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
jonouk
Scrub my idea. It is no longer relevant. I've just noticed that the rejection was dated 26th Match but you only told us on the 16th April? So your deadline to submit an appeal is close - 24th Go ahead and get it registered, now, with details to follow. Just say 'I rely on my original representations and other matters arising. Full details to follow.' -------------------- |
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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:17
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 25 May 2016 Member No.: 84,574 |
jonouk Scrub my idea. It is no longer relevant. I've just noticed that the rejection was dated 26th Match but you only told us on the 16th April? So your deadline to submit an appeal is close - 24th Go ahead and get it registered, now, with details to follow. Just say 'I rely on my original representations and other matters arising. Full details to follow.' Yes, you’re right - the trouble with doing things second hand! Ok will send the form first thing tomorrow. Still not sure what to put for q4 (postal or personal) or q5 (grounds for appeal) Tia |
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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:22
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
jonouk Scrub my idea. It is no longer relevant. I've just noticed that the rejection was dated 26th Match but you only told us on the 16th April? So your deadline to submit an appeal is close - 24th Go ahead and get it registered, now, with details to follow. Just say 'I rely on my original representations and other matters arising. Full details to follow.' Yes, you’re right - the trouble with doing things second hand! Ok will send the form first thing tomorrow. Still not sure what to put for q4 (postal or personal) or q5 (grounds for appeal) Tia Q4 put personal, you can always change later. Q5 just write full submission to follow. They will acknowledge registration and at a later date tell you by when you must make these submissions -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:32
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 25 May 2016 Member No.: 84,574 |
Q4 put personal, you can always change later. Q5 just write full submission to follow. They will acknowledge registration and at a later date tell you by when you must make these submissions Q5 is the Grounds for appeal - I’m thinking the only option is “The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur” as there’s no ‘procedural impropriety ‘ option. |
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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:39
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Q4 put personal, you can always change later. Q5 just write full submission to follow. They will acknowledge registration and at a later date tell you by when you must make these submissions Q5 is the Grounds for appeal - I’m thinking the only option is “The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur” as there’s no ‘procedural impropriety ‘ option. sorry. Its contravention did not occur for the signage and the penalty exceeded etc for the PI this is because if the PCN is invalid then the penalty can only be nil -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 23:17
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Do bear in mind only Mother can do this, or gives you written authority.
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Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 06:18
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 25 May 2016 Member No.: 84,574 |
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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 21:32
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 25 May 2016 Member No.: 84,574 |
Hello, Was there an outcome of the off forum discussions about the best way to present the appeal? The hearing is scheduled for May 24th.
TIA |
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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 22:37
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Hello, Was there an outcome of the off forum discussions about the best way to present the appeal? The hearing is scheduled for May 24th. TIA By when must you make submissions? -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 22:45
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Hello, Was there an outcome of the off forum discussions about the best way to present the appeal? The hearing is scheduled for May 24th. TIA See post #30. It was too late to use. -------------------- |
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Tue, 1 May 2018 - 06:44
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 25 May 2016 Member No.: 84,574 |
Hello, Was there an outcome of the off forum discussions about the best way to present the appeal? The hearing is scheduled for May 24th. TIA See post #30. It was too late to use. Oh, ok. Is there *nothing* I can do now then, or is the consensus I can still win the appeal on the original representations? The hearing is on 24th May and I said I would provide other information as instructed above. I don’t know what that other information is or what the basis of my appeal should be. I want to use the inadequate signage as the primary reason, and wondered if a video would help, rather than static photos. After that, the 21/14 day issue as a backup. There is discussion of a previous case above that was successful using that point. Would it help to refer to that and if so, what’s the case and how do I reference it? I’m happy to be guided here. Thanks |
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