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Parking ticket for motorcycle in Southwark
repiV
post Tue, 19 Jun 2007 - 18:31
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Grr...I had the morning off today and when I got to work the two motorcycle bays on the road were both full. So I decided to park in the car parking space next to my office...when I got back, penalty notice. Apparently it's because I failed to display a valid pay and display ticket...could've fooled me, I've never seen anything indicating it's a pay and display bay. I had absolutely no idea I had to pay to park there.

Anything I can do about this?

Thanks.
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post Tue, 19 Jun 2007 - 18:31
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muckychimney
post Tue, 19 Jun 2007 - 18:37
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Post the ticket onto here removing ALL PERSONAL DETAILS reg number ticket number bar code etc, ticket may be invalid for starters and photos of bay if you can, every little bit helps.


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repiV
post Tue, 19 Jun 2007 - 18:44
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Ok,

On the front, it's got the Southwark Council logo at the top...underneath it says ROAD TRAFFIC ACT 1991 (as amended), just above Penalty Charge Notice

The body of it is as follows:

PCN No.: S06xxxxx VRM: Wxxxxxx

Make: Yamaha Colour: Red

Which was left in: (street name)

Date of notice: 19/06/2007 Time: 13:58
Date of Contravention: 19/06/2007

Parking attendant number 0728 who had reasonable cause to believe that the following parking contravention had occured: (06)

Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket

The penalty charge of £100 must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of notice. If the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by 50% to £50.

Signature.....

Then it has the payment slip at the bottom, details match up.

On the rear...

DO NOT IGNORE THIS NOTICE

If payment of this Penalty Charge Notice is received within 14 days beginning with the date of the notice the reduced charge will be accepted as settlement.

If payment is not paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of this notice, you will be required to pay the full amount of the charge shown on this notice.

If payment is not received or not paid before the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice, a Notice to Owner will be served by the London Authority on the person appearing to be the owner of the vehicle

The Notice to Owner will also describe how to make formal representations.

(there are indeed three double spaces on the ticket)

The rest of it is all instructions about how to pay. I'll take a photo of the bay tomorrow, and if it makes any difference, it's a hire bike.
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Teufel
post Tue, 19 Jun 2007 - 20:35
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there is no time of contravention (only a time of issue) only a date

and as we know form moses v barnet issue and contravetnion are not the same

i think they have failed to descrieb the alleged contravention and have not fulifilled RTA 1991 s66
a 24 hr period is too wide and i am sure that P+D is not operating 24 hrs anyway
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repiV
post Tue, 19 Jun 2007 - 21:04
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QUOTE (Teufel @ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 - 21:35) *
there is no time of contravention (only a time of issue) only a date

and as we know form moses v barnet issue and contravetnion are not the same

i think they have failed to descrieb the alleged contravention and have not fulifilled RTA 1991 s66
a 24 hr period is too wide and i am sure that P+D is not operating 24 hrs anyway


Ooh...excellent. Thanks for this.

How do I go about formulating a case and formally contesting it?
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muckychimney
post Wed, 20 Jun 2007 - 17:17
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QUOTE (repiV @ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 - 21:04) *
How do I go about formulating a case and formally contesting it?



Wait until you get your NTO (which may also be flawed) from the council then send in your formal rep with nto stating non compliance with rta 1991, then wait for their rejection which they probably will, then off to npas for appeal then that is where you state your legal case ie moses v barnet. simple. tongue.gif keep thread informed.


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repiV
post Sun, 24 Jun 2007 - 09:31
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QUOTE (muckychimney @ Wed, 20 Jun 2007 - 18:17) *
Wait until you get your NTO (which may also be flawed) from the council then send in your formal rep with nto stating non compliance with rta 1991, then wait for their rejection which they probably will, then off to npas for appeal then that is where you state your legal case ie moses v barnet. simple. tongue.gif keep thread informed.


Sorry for the late reply...

So I'm going to receive something else through the post? I haven't received anything from them so far. Bear in mind it's a courtesy bike arranged through a non-fault accident support company (which I crashed later on that day - not my week at all, so I have a different courtesy bike with a different reg no. now) so them getting my address will not be a straightforward process.

Here are the pictures of the bay:





It's RIGHT outside my office and noone ever parks there, which really pisses me off.


There is this sign on a pole high above the bay, but it's so inconspicuous I'd never even noticed it until I looked for it:



The meter is down the other end of the road. Hardly obvious, especially when bikes get free pay and display parking in most boroughs.

This post has been edited by repiV: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 - 09:33
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greatscot
post Sun, 24 Jun 2007 - 10:07
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repiV,

Is this Controlled Parking Zone?

Does it have any signs like this at the entrance to any of the roads (big one, bottom left in the link)

CPZ sign

I can't see anywhere in your photos where you could work out time restrictions and when you would be required to pay. It might be different if there are CPZ entry signs at the entrance to the area you parked in.

GS


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repiV
post Sun, 24 Jun 2007 - 10:14
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QUOTE (greatscot @ Sun, 24 Jun 2007 - 11:07) *
repiV,

Is this Controlled Parking Zone?

Does it have any signs like this at the entrance to any of the roads (big one, bottom left in the link)

CPZ sign

I can't see anywhere in your photos where you could work out time restrictions and when you would be required to pay. It might be different if there are CPZ entry signs at the entrance to the area you parked in.

GS



I couldn't say for sure, but I have a feeling there is a Controlled Zone sign there. TBH I've never taken any conscious notice of them or their meaning, being a biker, parking is not usually a concern for me. In my neck of the woods I can park anywhere without paying anything, and at work I usually stick it in the motorcycle bays - which were full by the time I got there as I had to take the morning off to take delivery of the bike.
I'll look on Monday - in any case, if there is a CPZ sign and it states time restrictions, can I use this evidence in conjunction with the fact that there is no time of contravention? Or is it not that simple?

Or can I simply ignore it as the vehicle is not mine, and I only had it for a day which might make me a bit more difficult to trace?
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repiV
post Mon, 25 Jun 2007 - 19:31
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The signs say "Controlled Zone C1". 8am-6:30pm.
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greatscot
post Wed, 27 Jun 2007 - 11:22
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But is the circle above the words Controlled Zone or below it? If the circle is above the wording I would say that the sign does not comply with:

CPZ sign

Aberdeens are a mixture, with half of circles being above the wording on the sign, half having "ticket zone" above the blue circle. I'm waiting on an adjudicators ruling to tell me if all of these are illegal. Should know within the next couple of weeks.

As for the fact that there is no "time of contravention" as well as "time issued", I would say this is exactly the same grounds as the 2 dates issue highlighted in loads of other cases on here.
If you don't know the date of the contravention surely the time of the contravention is just as important as the two dates issue in an area where there is restrictions based on the time of the day.

See what others think on the board

All the best
GS

This post has been edited by greatscot: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 - 11:23


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repiV
post Fri, 29 Jun 2007 - 18:14
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QUOTE (greatscot @ Wed, 27 Jun 2007 - 12:22) *
But is the circle above the words Controlled Zone or below it? If the circle is above the wording I would say that the sign does not comply with:

CPZ sign

Aberdeens are a mixture, with half of circles being above the wording on the sign, half having "ticket zone" above the blue circle. I'm waiting on an adjudicators ruling to tell me if all of these are illegal. Should know within the next couple of weeks.


Sadly, it was below. sad.gif

QUOTE
As for the fact that there is no "time of contravention" as well as "time issued", I would say this is exactly the same grounds as the 2 dates issue highlighted in loads of other cases on here.
If you don't know the date of the contravention surely the time of the contravention is just as important as the two dates issue in an area where there is restrictions based on the time of the day.

See what others think on the board


Just to clarify, it doesn't specify whether it's the time of issue or time of contravention. It has a separate date of issue and contravention, and then it just says "Time:"...

It's set out like this:

Date of Notice : 19/06/2007 Time: 13:58
Date of Contravention: 19/06/2007

Where does this leave me, do you think?
My 14 day period is nearly up... :|

I haven't received a Notice to Owner either, and the hire company haven't mentioned it to me. Do you think I should ask them if they've received it and what they've done with it? Seems odd not to mention it, I wonder if they pay the tickets then pass on the bill.

QUOTE
All the best
GS


Cheers.

This post has been edited by repiV: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 - 18:14
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Teufel
post Fri, 29 Jun 2007 - 18:29
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time is time of issue (its next to issue date)

contravention is a continuing act - usually states 'seen at' or 'from / until'

their can be no presumptio it is time of contrevention
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repiV
post Fri, 29 Jun 2007 - 19:13
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QUOTE (Teufel @ Fri, 29 Jun 2007 - 19:29) *
time is time of issue (its next to issue date)

contravention is a continuing act - usually states 'seen at' or 'from / until'

their can be no presumptio it is time of contrevention


So do you definitely think it's worth contesting the ticket?
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